What is correct SPAG?

[MarMar]

I know what you mean. I always thought it was "off of" when I was younger.

[Ryan]

Is "I'm a David Hasselhoff fan" respectable English?

[MarMar]

Yup. If call being a D.H. fan respectable.

[Si-Co]

I've been on a 'Plain English' course at work - basically learning how to make our letters to customers as easy to understand as possible. SPAG was mentioned, and apparently some people actually use text-speak in formal letters! The lady running the course was instantly a hit with me, because she was obviously as much of a SPAG Nazi as me!

I was, however, very concerned about how little most of my colleagues and even the team leaders knew about what I would consider basic SPAG. They wanted to stick apostrophes everywhere (eg. Please send in your form's) and some just randomly inserted commas in a sentence wherever they pleased! I might sound pompous (and don't mean to) but I sometimes wonder what gets taught in schools these days, and whether anyone actually bothers paying attention to their English teachers!

Rant over.

[MarMar]

It seems to me, like my sistr noticed when she was in Scotland in... '97(?), that you over there don't learn so much spelling etc as we do. The Norwegian students are better at spelling and grammar (in English) than the English themselves.

When I was in York for a study-program last semester this came up in a conversation I had with some friends who live there. Apparently, one of them is a teacher (maths), but had to step in as an English teacher, and now, in difference to when he was at school 10-15 years ago, the children today learn grammar. He didn't and thus didn't have a clue about what he was supposed to teach these kids!

[John]

It seems to me, like my sistr noticed when she was in Scotland in... '97(?), that you over there don't learn so much spelling etc as we do. The Norwegian students are better at spelling and grammar (in English) than the English themselves.

When I was in York for a study-program last semester this came up in a conversation I had with some friends who live there. Apparently, one of them is a teacher (maths), but had to step in as an English teacher, and now, in difference to when he was at school 10-15 years ago, the children today learn grammar. He didn't and thus didn't have a clue about what he was supposed to teach these kids!

It is an interesting topic. Most children in English speaking countries learn to speak English by listening to those around them particularly their parents and those close to them. If these people don't speak correctly them neither do the children. When children start to learn written English it is often difficult to modify bad habits learnt from birth. In my experience most people who learn English by study in a non English speaking country learn grammatical rules and correct usage as they go so it is often the case that their English is more grammatically correct.

As a teacher here in Australia for 35 years I felt our biggest problem was that we were losing the rich and varied vocabulary which makes English such a descriptive langauge. Children ( and their parents ) were using a gradually shrinking vocabulary of words so that all conversation and written material lacked variety and colour.

We need to remember that the main aim of language is communication. Boring conversation or writing won't be listened to or read for long regardless of how corect the spelling or grammar is. The greatest sin in writing particularly is to be boring.

Crikey!! I'm beginning to sound like a teacher again. How frightening!! I'll stop.

[MarMar]

I like teachers!

Anyway, back to topic!

Yes, I think you are correct. We were told about these tests you have to take when you are from a non-English speaking country and want to study in ie. the US last fall (as I study English at the university). There are different parts to the test, focusing not merely on grammar and the ability to write English but also if you can communicate orally. Most Western people have no trouble with this - at least here the teachers aim for lessons where the students take an active part, eg. talking and using the language, whereas Japanese and Chinese students are not used to this. All they do is learn the verbs!

What you said about shrinking vocabulary is true. We are told that a wide variety of words is nice in an essay and therefore at least I look up synonyms in dictionaries when writing. I know most of the usual, but I don't want to use the same word too many times. Now, I have always been told that I have a very wide vocabulary, and I always score well in spelling/vocabulary/ability to communicate my arguments, but I guess I will never match up to a native speaker.

[John]

I like teachers!

Anyway, back to topic!

Yes, I think you are correct. We were told about these tests you have to take when you are from a non-English speaking country and want to study in ie. the US last fall (as I study English at the university). There are different parts to the test, focusing not merely on grammar and the ability to write English but also if you can communicate orally. Most Western people have no trouble with this - at least here the teachers aim for lessons where the students take an active part, eg. talking and using the language, whereas Japanese and Chinese students are not used to this. All they do is learn the verbs!

What you said about shrinking vocabulary is true. We are told that a wide variety of words is nice in an essay and therefore at least I look up synonyms in dictionaries when writing. I know most of the usual, but I don't want to use the same word too many times. Now, I have always been told that I have a very wide vocabulary, and I always score well in spelling/vocabulary/ability to communicate my arguments, but I guess I will never match up to a native speaker.

You are probably a long way ahead of many "native speakers" already. People wrongly assume that in an English speaking country like Australia that everyone uses all the rich vocabulary resources of the langauge. Not so!! Many people use a very limited vocabulary. We even have campaigns with Government financial backing which encourage parents to read a wide variety of literature to their young children to add to their vocabulary. Yet we still have children starting school who have never been read a book and have learnt most of their language from television.

[katya]

Grammar, when I was at school a few moons ago, was not the main focus in my English classes, and to be honest, I think this is the main reason why English was my favourite subject. Basic grammar was briefly covered in first and second year, then in third year onwards we moved onto more detailed studied of books, poems etc, as well as developing our own creative writing abilities and personal responses to literature. While I feel there could be more focus on grammar, I think everything else I mentioned is more important in the study of English, and I believe that through writing and reading, people learn how to use grammar and spelling correctly.

At a more advanced level of English, ie university level, it's all very well having perfect grammar and spelling, but if you can't analyse a text, form a cohesive argument and present it in a way that gets your point across succinctly, you're not going to do very well.

Don't get me wrong; I think grammar is really important, and, as I said above, I feel there could be more focus on it in school, but I agree with John that language is essentially about communication.

[MarMar]

This seems to spread here as well. My sister used to live in a city called Drammen, and to top it all of, in a part where 95% are immigrants. There is 1 Norwegian pupil per class. Anyway, to "deal with" the problem of immigrant parents not learning their children Norwegian we have cheaper kindergarten for children in some cities (where immigration is high) and language tests every year from the child is 3. My niece scored higher than "normal native-Norwegian children" which I suspect is because she was not exposed to television as other children were, but her parents sang to her and read her books. She learned to read capital letters at 4. Now, at 6, she reads books and writes.