TessyBear Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Thanks for your help Red my friend! OK so I was gonna give the spoiler thing a test but I don't have the eye thing. I'm never really gonna have any spoilers in too much depth tbh. I don't go in for spoilers any more by and large. Takes all the fun out of it. Like I am getting kinda desperate about this whole thing with James but if I was to just hop onto Wiki, and I did see it was there the other day but thankfully stopped myself before I got that far, that would just take all the wind out of the sails as annoying as they are becoming. So I have a new question to ask you lovely helpful people: You know on nf.com how you can press "more options" in the quick reply or whatever it's called? Does BTTB have a helpful option like that for us? This website is very good and it has some useful things that nf.com does not. But right now I can't see any smilies in my reply options and I do love a good smilie and maybe more importantly I don't seem to have the option to hide any spoilers as baby as they may be. Thanks you guys! Ooh Zac almost ran Oscar over. The answers you can get when you ask a question! This was after their biological relationship had been established presumably? Well yes that would be enough to sober any decent person right up! I'm glad he did sort his life out! I mean look at him now!! Oh Zac!! I'm getting all emotional! But seriously like I said the other day I love a good story about someone who gets their life back on track and fixes the serious issues they were having! RESPECT man!!! Deacon from Nashville anyone?
atrus Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Well, I did feel a lot of sympathy for Phoebe, partly because I felt her scenes were well acted and partly because I don't dislike her character most of the time (or at least I didn't until she got with Ash), being one of the more bearable of the Braxtons Plus. Like a comparable scene in Neighbours not so long ago, the scene where she tried to get it on with Ash before eventually breaking down rang oddly true, perhaps reflecting an almost primal, subconscious need to try and make new life after experiencing a bereavement. Though it clearly isn't fair that Phoebe's accusing Kyle of forcing her to have the baby, or that she was so rude to Ricky, I can understand why she's lashing out and blaming people at this point in time because of the enormous guilt she clearly feels herself. Kyle has less excuse for behaving how he did. Yes, he's got a right to be upset too, and to cry, and maybe even do a little bit of smashing things up. But he hasn't had to live through the physical and emotional trauma that Phoebe has, so I draw the line at him picking fights with Ash. As with Phoebe, I like Kyle some and maybe even most of the time, but not when he's giving it the traditional Braxton fisticuffs. Nonetheless one does feel that, beneath the remonstrances, Kyle and Phoebe really need each other about now in order to get through this, and that Ash is standing in the way of that somewhat. So Maddy's only been in James's house two minutes and she's already playing super-sleuth. Well, good for her; I suppose somebody needs to with Denny six feet under. Having two phones isn't exactly weird per se - but on top of Maddy's existing suspicions and having overheard the phone call the other day, it makes sense that she'd be on amber alert by now. Particularly after James started overcompensating by parading his two phones and parents' imminent visit in front of Roo, in a transparent attempt to make it look as if he had nothing to hide when clearly, he does. What I can't decide is whether he's cut from the same unhinged cloth as Charlotte and Hunter, and is about to show his nasty side, or whether he's just a spineless cheat with a secret family elsewhere.
Angelica Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 I agree, Red. I am finding it really hard to sympathise with Phoebe even though what she is going through is awful. It frustrated me that from the beginning of the pregnancy, Phoebe has always played the victim even though her actions, I.e sleeping with 2 men in a short period of time, contributed to the situation. Which means that even though I get that she was lashing out at Ricky and Kyle. I still felt frustrated at her for doing so. In the same way, Kyle throwing punches at Ash made me roll my eyes. The Ricky/Kyle scene at the end was by far the scene that most resonated with me (perhaps because I spent half of the Phone/Ash scenes hoping that this was the end for them). Props to the show for showing both sides, usually shows only focus on the mother's grief.
TessyBear Posted November 17, 2015 Report Posted November 17, 2015 Spoiler Well look what I found!! It's that thing that looks like when you align the text in MS Word for me. Found it by accident when I was updating my sig just now! Well that's that problem sorted! Please feel free to look at the above complete and total non spoiler! It's just me saying how I finally found the button YAY!! It actually says LEAH'S DYING!!! They're killing her off. Ada's finally saying goodbye. No Spoiler I'm just messin' with yas. I would never do that to you guys. I would be pretty mega gutted if I ever happened to find out a spoiler as flippin mahoosive as that. Ooh it's fun this spoi Spoiler ler thing hehe!! And easy when you know how!!
Slade Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 I'm absolutely over the moon that Phoebe lost the baby. I don't really have anything against her and what happened was unfortunate but as far as I'm concerned it's collateral damage and worth it as it means that Kyle is suffering. And boy is he suffering and I'm loving it! I really am. Initially I wanted Ash to be the father so it would punish Kyle. But this is better than I could have possibly hoped. Not only did Kyle believe and look forward to fatherhood but he's had it taken away from him much to my delight especially after he was given hope on Monday's episode. This was particularly evident after he came home upon finding out and Ricky asked him to look after Casey. When he told Ricky and he was crying I didn't have one ounce of sympathy for him. I really loved Andy's comment to Kyle about being Phoebe and Ash's third wheel/stalker. And Andy's right, they didn't have to be at his beck and call. Kyle is a self-obsessed bullying thug. His whole bullying, controlling and demanding attitude during this pregnancy has annoyed me intensely. This criminal absolutely deserves what is happening to him - And then some! I enjoyed Phoebe's coldness to Kyle when he first went to see how she was and then when she blamed him for forcing her to have the baby later on. When he assaulted Ash I wanted Ash to knock seven bells out of him and was disappointed that Nate broke the fight up although I did enjoy Kyle blaming Ash because he couldn't handle what had happened. But you know what the best part was? It was when he destroyed the cot. I always enjoy it when Kyle loses it but that scene was absolutely wonderful and sheer delight. I couldn't stop smiling and can't remember the last time I enjoyed a scene that much with Kyle in it. It almost gave me goosebumps. Ricky annoyed me once again sticking her oar in first with Kyle and then going round to see Phoebe herself despite Kat and Hannah advising her not to. I'm glad Nate's working back at the hospital. Irrespective of his personal life I think he's a good doctor. I actually quite enjoyed the scenes with him and Kat. Can't help but feel a little bit sorry for her. She clearly really loves him and Nate's only with her because Ricky rejected him so I can't help thinking that she's going to get hurt again. Still I do like the way she is supporting Nate. There is an argument as to whether he deserves it though. Oh and Maddy, there's nothing wrong with having two phones, I've had two for many years - a work phone and a personal one too. I like to keep work separate from my personal life.
Red Ranger 1 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 19 hours ago, Changelo shipper <3 said: Ooh Zac almost ran Oscar over. Sorry, no, what I meant was Zac passed out drunk, woke up at home not knowing how he got there, and thought he’d driven back and couldn’t remember it, then found out someone had been run over and his car was damaged and thought he’d done it. In fact, Oscar had found him passed out and driven him home, and he was the one who’d run someone over. 20 hours ago, ter06 said: There's been a mudslide and two cyclones since then and probably more I've forgotten about so it could have been damaged. The house hasn't been seen in 15 years so anything could have happened in the meantime. Nearer 12 years, actually, but I take your point, there’s time for something to have happened to it since. So, today. Until the last ten minutes, I hated the way Kyle was treated. Phoebe texting an apology didn’t make up for what she said, I needed her to go and do it in person and so did Kyle. What happened with Maddy…I don’t want to downplay the seriousness of attempted rape but…I’m not sure that’s what this was. Maybe the show’s censorship limitations counting against it again but evidence that Kyle wouldn’t have stopped if Matt hadn’t come in is far from conclusive, he seemed to “come to” immediately. It was sleazy but I felt Matt, Roo and Ricky were all way too harsh, with Matt apparently planning to sort him out (I kinda wanted Kyle to deck him at that point), Roo stomping round the house to stir up a lynch mob in much the same way she once did with Casey (note that again she didn’t even bother to get Maddy’s version, just letting Matt stir things up) and Ricky…She’s demonstrated a distinct lack of loyalty towards Kyle lately, eg not caring about the effect Ash and Phoebe’s relationship had on him, and I wanted her to show some understanding, not be on the attack all the time and then encourage Maddy to press charges. I thought back to when Saint Andy drugged Maddy and set her up to be potentially raped (by Matt, who we’re now meant to see as a trusted bodyguard!)…fair enough, Roo and Ricky were equally condemnatory then but this isn’t in the same league and there weren’t any real consequences for him. Then we have Ricky saying Kyle’s taking time off and going away and I thought “Okay, won’t see him until next week”, and for one horrible moment I thought Phoebe and Ash were going to hold a memorial for the twins without him…But then, suddenly, he appeared again and we got a proper scene and proper apology between him and Phoebe (I’d like to see him apologise to Maddy too, next week hopefully), and a beautifully heartwarming scene of him with Ricky and Casey, perhaps realising that while he might not be a father, he has still got a family…Rescued it at the end. Slightly frustrated that the miscarriage seems to be a state secret: People knew Phoebe was pregnant, they need to know the truth. Andy seems to know but isn’t telling, and Ricky’s vague babble around “family stuff” helped no-one. I’m pleased that my fears were unfounded and Maddy’s going to keep working at Angelo’s, except now I’m worried it’s an excuse to make her spend time with Matt. I know, I’m never satisfied. I’m so glad we were spared a scene of her crying on his shoulder, although his macho “protectiveness” and unexplained presence at Roo and Maddy’s breakfast still grated. Re Maddy and James: I haven’t even got one mobile phone so I don’t know if two is unusual, but Maddy did hear him someone not to call him on that number, so that’s an extra reason to find it suspicious. Chris is the first person to notice something up with Denny! You lost a keeper there, girl. I’m assuming that if Charlotte reset Denny’s account then the message would go to Denny’s e-mail and it’d just be square one? Be a bit of a stretch if she does stumble upon her passwords. We’ve still got the problem of Charlotte being the protagonist in all this, leading to a lot of Villain in Danger cliffhangers. At the end, are we meant to be worried that she’ll be caught?
atrus Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 Glad to get back to Charlotte and Hunter today, as it seems like they'd been out of action for too long, given the seriousness of the storyline. Particularly spooky moment with Denny doing the whole 'Banquo comes to breakfast' routine. I must say I think Erika Heynatz is a very good actor; even though I don't think much of her alter-ego, she manages to squeeze some sympathy from viewers for the character purely through her performance, which I think is some achievement under the circumstances. I'm not sure that Charlotte trying to hack into Denny's Facecloud account (presumably in the hope of impersonating her?) isn't simply going to add more smoke to the fire, though. These things are surely very easily traced nowadays, and you can't impersonate someone indefinitely without knowing an awful lot about them. So personally I think it would be far better from a self-preservation perspective for Charlotte to let Denny 'disappear' overseas, than to try to convince people she's alive and well - a strategy which by definition has to fall flat on its face sooner or later. I think what Kyle needs more than anything else is a serious course of anger management therapy; it's just that, at present, I can't see that ending in any other way than with a dead anger management therapist. I'm sorry, but losing a baby (or rather, your ex-partner losing a baby) doesn't give you the green light to act like that towards a woman - or rather a girl, since Maddy's apparently under 18 for the time being, despite ongoing continuity issues - particularly an employee over whom you wield a degree of power. It reminded me that Kyle has real and serious power issues, exhibited to a shocking degree when he first arrived in the show, that have never really gone away. Which is not to say I don't feel any sympathy with him - I do - I just don't think his actions were justified here. 2 hours ago, Red Ranger 1 said: What happened with Maddy…I don’t want to downplay the seriousness of attempted rape but…I’m not sure that’s what this was. Maybe the show’s censorship limitations counting against it again but evidence that Kyle wouldn’t have stopped if Matt hadn’t come in is far from conclusive, he seemed to “come to” immediately. I agree in that I don't think it's necessarily fair to assume he would've actually tried to rape Maddy - apart from anything he was probably too drunk, and he seemed to an extent to be misreading her words and body language because of that. At a push you could also argue it affected his response time to the word 'stop', and he'd hopefully have obeyed if she'd kept telling him to. But at the same time, nobody mentioned rape - except initially when Roo asked if Kyle forced himself on her, and Maddy quickly said he didn't. And Kyle's behaviour undoubtedly constituted sexual harrassment, so, as such, everyone had an absolute right to take it seriously. Aside from his implying that he'd give Maddy extra work if she slept with him, which is illegal, it's a classic device of sexual harassers to try to lay the blame on the unwilling party like he did: 'You haven't taken your eyes off me all night.' Well, even if we accept that - and overlook the fact that Kyle obviously hasn't noticed Maddy has been looking at him with fear, rather than lust - it doesn't give him the right to start putting his hands on her when she's specifically asked him to stop. This was the exact point when Matt came in; and so in the context that this is what Matt saw and relayed to others, I don't think Matt, Roo and Ricky were in the wrong to be very upset about it. 2 hours ago, Red Ranger 1 said: I felt Matt, Roo and Ricky were all way too harsh, with Matt apparently planning to sort him out (I kinda wanted Kyle to deck him at that point), Roo stomping round the house to stir up a lynch mob in much the same way she once did with Casey (note that again she didn’t even bother to get Maddy’s version, just letting Matt stir things up) and Ricky…She’s demonstrated a distinct lack of loyalty towards Kyle lately, eg not caring about the effect Ash and Phoebe’s relationship had on him, and I wanted her to show some understanding, not be on the attack all the time and then encourage Maddy to press charges. I thought back to when Saint Andy drugged Maddy and set her up to be potentially raped (by Matt, who we’re now meant to see as a trusted bodyguard!)…fair enough, Roo and Ricky were equally condemnatory then but this isn’t in the same league and there weren’t any real consequences for him. Taking them individually - on Matt, I confess to not remembering exactly what he and Andy did in the past, and I'm not going to attempt to justify that as it sounds horrific. Then again, Kyle did some pretty horrific things when he arrived (tying his brother to a car in the middle of a desert, for starters), so it's not like they're in poor company in that regard - but while we can all talk at length about how H&A likes to reform its bad guys, and the implications of that on being able to take any later moralising seriously, I still don't feel it changes the facts in this situation. Neither would I justify Matt going and starting a fight with Kyle, which it does seem was where he was headed, rather than for a reasonable chat. But otherwise his being protective of Maddy was, I thought, perfectly understandable. On Roo, I actually don't think she would be much of a guardian figure if she hadn't taken any action. Of everyone, she had the most right to be encouraging Maddy to press charges, and it's perfectly natural that she was. Ricky was dead right to give Kyle a telling off for his behaviour on the beach, for my money, even as she stayed there to support him; somebody needs to show him that he has to snap out of this kind of dangerous stuff before he lands up in more serious trouble. And I don't think Ricky encouraged Maddy to press charges; she was there to see Maddy on Kyle's behalf, in strict damage limitation mode. She said she'd understand if she did want to go to the cops, within the context of trying to explain Kyle's actions and offering Maddy a more permanent job, presumably in the hope that she wouldn't press charges - despite an obvious conflict in her, as a woman, telling her that actually, Maddy would be well within her rights. And although Ricky brought it up, to be fair, she didn't know that Maddy wasn't already thinking about doing that (given Roo's attitude, indeed, I'm surprised that the possibility hadn't come up before then), and may not have raised it if she had. All that said, I think Maddy made the right call, to her credit - she learned that Kyle's personal circumstances were very difficult at the moment and recognised his behaviour to be out-of-character and exacerbated by drink, so opted not to take it any further. Overall, I thought the show handled the nuances of the situation very well, therefore, having presented all sides of the argument before drawing things to a reasonable conclusion.
Red Ranger 1 Posted November 18, 2015 Report Posted November 18, 2015 I get that I'm on very dodgy moral ground here.I am not trying to justify what Kyle did.I just don't think other people's actions were entirely justified either.Ironically, Maddy, the one who had the most right to be upset, was the one who was most understanding.I think it's unfair to suggest, even in jest, that Kyle would murder a counsellor.What has he done to suggest that?He's shouted a lot (par for the course in a soap opera), smashed up an inanimate object (ditto again), picked a fight with Ash in which Ash seemed to do more damage to him (also ditto, although still not justified) and...this.And what is this?You agree that it's not attempted rape, yet a moment later you seem to concede that Matt was treating it as if it was and everyone else was just taking his word for it.You say sexual harassment.Yes, unquestionably, but last time I checked sexual harassment wasn't a police matter, it was a civil case.Which brings us back to everyone trying to make more of it than it was. We seem to more or less agree about Matt, and possibly my recoiling at him using this situation to force his way into Maddy's life as a boyfriend-in-waiting is affecting my judgement of him.As for Roo and Ricky...I don't know.Maybe I let my frustration at the complete lack of support Kyle was receiving boil over.But it seemed like Roo spent about half a minute talking to Maddy, ignored everything she said and stormed off to "sort Kyle out", when a good guardian would have shown her more care and attention instead of wanting to pick a fight because of Matt going on about "what would have happened if I hadn't been there", and palming her off on some random teenage boy.How Ricky was at the end is how she should have been from the get go, making it clear that he was in the wrong but also being supportive, instead of firing off clichés like "What were you thinking?" (and making incredible remarks like "She's an employee!" as if she's most worried about the business) and a third hand account of Maddy being "really shaken" when she didn't seem to be anything of the sort.She may have been attempting damage limitation but "I understand if you want to press charges" seems to run counter-productive to that, and it was Maddy who was more interested in a job than on "making Kyle pay", while everyone else is aghast at the thought of her "going back to that place".(Except Matt, who's probably looking forward to being able to spend his working hours ogling her in a black dress.)Again, I have to ask, why not actually tell them that it was arguably the worst day of Kyle's life, instead of giving Matt an excuse for a snide "We've all got family issues"?It made Maddy's reaction feel very awkward, as if she somehow trusts what Ricky's telling her even though Ricky wasn't telling her anything, and a proper discussion might have made it seem less ham-fisted. I'm not seeing any nuances, I'm seeing a mess that was neither one thing or the other, having Kyle do something that was bad but not that bad, having characters make self-righteous speeches about how This Is Wrong and then wrapping the whole thing up neatly never to be mentioned again.Really, what was the point?I thought at first it was to make the audience side with Ash and Phoebe over Kyle, but he's back to normal and friendly with Phoebe by the end of the episode.Was it to give Kyle a wake-up call?Possibly but it seems a very heavy-handed way of doing it.Was it to give Matt an excuse to act like Maddy's saviour?Possibly but I don't even want to think about that.It was a bad storyline, badly handled, and very few characters came out of it with much credit.
kmp1963 Posted November 19, 2015 Report Posted November 19, 2015 I stayed out of this debate when it was raging on the Australian thread as I hadn't seen the episodes at the time. However I was disappointed that yet again the show took a serious issue ie sexual harassment in the workplace and treated it so casually. It could and should have been a good storyline to explore. And ftr RR1, here in NZ it is a police matter and does result in criminal charges as indeed it should. Ah well, another opportunity lost.
atrus Posted November 19, 2015 Report Posted November 19, 2015 1 hour ago, Red Ranger 1 said: I think it's unfair to suggest, even in jest, that Kyle would murder a counsellor. I think fictitious characters are entirely fair game when it comes to jest, in all circumstances. But I'd add that the joke (and it was a joke) isn't just a reaction to his current behaviour - it's also a reaction to his general tendency towards violence, and especially during his early days in the show. Plenty would argue that torturing someone by leaving them in the desert without food or water (whether or not you intend to kill them/let them die) is worse than or as bad as, for example, turning off the life-support machine of an unconscious person (which Andy did to Sworn Braxton Enemy #17 and which I think we both agree makes him difficult to redeem, however much of a git the bloke was). And even if it's not as bad, it very nearly is. So I make no apologies for joking about Kyle's tempestuous behaviour. And perhaps he wouldn't bump off a counsellor, but is someone with as much pent-up rage, tragic backstory and testosterone as Kyle capable of murder? Absolutely. 1 hour ago, Red Ranger 1 said: You agree that it's not attempted rape, yet a moment later you seem to concede that Matt was treating it as if it was and everyone else was just taking his word for it.You say sexual harassment.Yes, unquestionably, but last time I checked sexual harassment wasn't a police matter, it was a civil case.Which brings us back to everyone trying to make more of it than it was. Well, yes, I said I don't think we can assume he was about to rape her. But the boundary between sexual harassment and sexual/indecent assault (which is surely criminal) is pretty blurred, and since Kyle was already touching Maddy when Matt walked in, it's hard to know just how far it would have gone, and how far what has happened already constitutes an offence. I don't pretend to be an expert - honestly, I'm ignorant of which of them are police and civil matters - and maybe Roo, Ricky and Maddy are too. Perhaps the police would have told them it was a civil matter and in which case, no harm done by going to them (unless Chris overheard the exchange, which he probably would have); but I think my point stands that Maddy would have been in her rights to complain that Kyle had abused his position. But I do maintain that I agree with her decision not to pursue that, under the circumstances. 1 hour ago, Red Ranger 1 said: How Ricky was at the end is how she should have been from the get go, making it clear that he was in the wrong but also being supportive, instead of firing off clichés like "What were you thinking?" (and making incredible remarks like "She's an employee!" as if she's most worried about the business) I'm going to stick to my guns and say I think Ricky was doling out some much needed tough love on the beach to Kyle. He needed to hear that his behaviour wasn't on. She was stroking his arm throughout that conversation, which I took as her being as supportive as she felt able having heard how he'd acted; and really, what was he thinking? And she is an employee. And that's not just necessarily about protecting the business; it's also about the fact that he abused a position of power by suggesting to Maddy that further work would result from sexual favours. That makes his behaviour more morally and legally serious, and Ricky was absolutely right to flag it up, before continuing to fight his corner the following day. 1 hour ago, Red Ranger 1 said: But it seemed like Roo spent about half a minute talking to Maddy, ignored everything she said and stormed off to "sort Kyle out", when a good guardian would have shown her more care and attention instead of wanting to pick a fight because of Matt going on about "what would have happened if I hadn't been there", and palming her off on some random teenage boy. As for Roo, if we're cutting Kyle some slack for his behaviour - and I'm not saying we shouldn't - then I think we also need to accept that it made Roo very angry, and that in those circumstances she felt a parental instinct to run off and sort Kyle out. Yes, in the cold light of day, she may have felt it a better choice to stay with Maddy. But equally I don't think she left Maddy with a 'random teenage boy'. Matt and Maddy are pretty close friends and live together, and Roo was also trying to defuse any kind of violent confrontation by giving Matt a task that would prevent him from going back in and smacking Kyle in the face. I am going to agree, though, that it was odd how Ricky refused to say anything about the exact reason for Kyle's distress. I can only assume that this is because the writers are holding over the revelation for some other purpose, but it did feel as if she wasn't quite making his case strongly enough as a result.
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