Dangerous Dogs

[rennyren]

To add to that (and mention my dog again because I love her SOOOOOOOOO much) I've noticed that smaller dogs, in my experience anyway, are more aggressive than larger dogs. We have this pomeranian down the road from us, and whenever we walk past it sticks its head through this hole in the gate and yips and snarls at us, trying to get through.

My dog, however, just stands there and watched whilst our housemate climbs through the bathroom window.

The thing is, the damage that the small dogs do is minor. A bad tempered chihuahua poses no threat, no matter how yippy and irritating it is. Whereas a good-natured doberman who's harmed a child by wrestling with it, where they understand that wrestling is the way to play, is instantly the spawn of satan.

[valli]

With all due respect Valli, and I understand what a traumatic experience a dog attack can be ... I know it's happened to me a few times ... you shouldn't be afraid of dogs, because it's the fear they respond to. As long as you assert your status as the alpha creature - these days not too hard as long as the dogs been well trained ... our dog (who's a medium sized dog) submits to chihuahuas ... then they won't hurt you. It kills me to see children that are too afraid to approach dogs, even when they are with their owners. And the dogs, as I've said, don't deserve it at all.

I'm actually more nervous than afraid. But no one can really blame me, because in my neighbourhood, there lives a male German Shepherd. Very cute dog (I love German Shepherds), but very dangerous. You never know what he might do. And who is to blame? The owners. They rarely give him anything to do, so he entertains himself. One problem. He's not aware of how strong he is. He could kill me with one bite I feel sorry for him The owners don't treat him the way he deserves and is now a dog who is both dangerous and mentally disturbed

My best friend has a dog, a male Golden Retriever, and he is the nicest dog I know His best friend is the cat that lives there and he would never hurt you on purpose. But even he can bite. My best friend and her brother were walking with the dog when they met a smaller dog. And like you said rennyren, the smaller dogs are more aggresive. So the smaller dog barks and runs around my friends dog until he snapps. He grabbs the smaller dog by the neck and shakes him. We all thought that he was going to kill the smaller dog. But fortunately, the dog let him go and he survived. But it showes that any dog can bite if someone annoys them. I still trust my friends dog, he has never done anything like that again.

I love dogs, but it kills me to see that not everyone treats them the way they deserve. That's really why I am nervous around dogs, I don't trust the owners to have given the dog proper treatment that it deserves.

[I love music]

Anyway, that was my life story. I hope you all enjoyed it

I don't agree with that last line at all, but I'm not going to try and change your mind on that.

Well, I wasn't going to reply to this post because no, I won't EVER change my mind about kids being more important than dogs. But I'm sitting here on my next-but-last day off work after Xmas , minding my own business drinking tea (the alcohol's tonight! ) sort of half writing my fanfic and listening to the radio. And the news has just been on and, yes, here we go again, this is what the newcaster just said...

"A 30-year-old woman has been savaged by a Rottweiller and another dog..." *** see ETA below

Apparently the person who had the Rottweillers has been charged with not controlling the dogs. They broke through the fence and attacked the victim. Not sure of the other details, I was listening to the music really and not the news. I don't doubt that this has only made the news because of the very recent tragic death of the baby by a Rottweiller - tho it does beg the question how MANY savage attacks by Rottweillers and similar breeds go unreported...?

But this is my last word on the subject. You have your view and I have mine as does everybody else. My view is this:

Put a dog back in the wild and it will automatically revert to its animal instincts. It will hunt rabbits, whatever, seek shelter etc and SURVIVE. Leave a baby or small child in the same situation and he/she would be helpless. The baby would DIE. (Forget the odd story here and there of babies being brought up by animals, we're talking comparisons and anyway plenty of humans have taken in abandoned animals.) A baby or child is the weaker. To my mind, our duty is to protect the weaker.

Smaller dogs like terriers ARE often snappy but a child has much more chance of being rescued from that type of dog than, say, a Rottweiller or pit bull, which is why I would like to see much tougher laws on the owning of these breeds. Dogs can and do make great pets for kids (when I was tiny my uncle's spaniel used to let me ride on its back) and kids can and do learn from them. But certain dogs, with or without good owners, are inclined towards aggression because that is the way they have been bred.

My very last word on the subject is this: I once worked with a woman who said if there was a road accident and a child and a dog had been injured, she would go to the aid of the dog. Well, no way would I do the same. For me, the child would come first. Every single time. To me, kids matter more than dogs. And, like I said, that's a matter of opinion and my last word on the subject.

To finish on a lighter note, my brother recently said to me he'd have to hide his money because the house was going to be empty and the labrador would be in on his own. I started laughing and said "Why? Is he going to rob it and have a night out himself?" "Well, he's so mellow, he'd probably hold the torch for the burglar," he replied.

Have a good New Year.

**ETA The news update just said they were BOTH Rottweillers

[emmasi]

What concerns me about that report is that they didn't say what the other dog was. To me that reads like typical news sensationalism - they jump on a topic and go out of their way to report it so that it looks like that's the biggest threat to society, especially the helpless women and children, until society loses interest in that topic and the news casters lose their ratings. This week it's Rottweillers, next week it will be toddlers and swimming pools, and the week after that it will be teenage drivers, every last one of them high on drugs and about to run YOUR FAMILY off the road . For all we know it was the "other dog" that did the savaging in that attack, but that wouldn't have quite the same alarmist ring of "it's all happening again!!!!" to it...

If there was a road accident, I would go to the aid of a child over a dog because leaving a child to die would be close enough to murder for there to be too many questions asked. No one would ask why you didn't rescue the dog. The other thing is that dogs are more aggressive when they're scared, injured, or guarding. If a dog is conscious and aware that the child it's with is under threat, it's likely to attack you even though you're trying to help - it doesn't know the difference.

Babies won't survive in the wild, but a new born puppy the equivalent age of a baby - still dependent on it's mother's milk and warmth, and blind to boot - wouldn't fair much better. A dog matures faster than a human for sure, about seven times faster in fact... but it's not a fair comparison to say that an adult dog would do better on it's own than a baby human. An adult human would probably do better than a baby dog. I know that wasn't your point, but I just wanted to say that.

I don't blame you for preferring babies at all. It's in-built to protect your own species over another, particularly one that you view as a threat to yours. I'm more cynical though. I see babies as future human adults, and as I said before, humans scare me. Like dogs, they need to be trained and cared for properly to turn out right, and the truly terrifying thing is that you can put as many restrictions on dog ownership and licensing as you like, but you'll never have the same laws imposed on parenthood. At least dogs give you a warning when they're about to attack. They bark and growl and charge... A human will kill you in an instant in cold blood and without a second thought. Hell, they'll even willingly kill themselves just to make sure you go down, even if you've never ever met. How many dogs have randomly shot up a school lately? Or blown up a crowded building? Or killed someone from a distance without ever being seen or found? Dogs are a very minor problem compared to all that. They're just an easy distraction because they're a problem that can be fixed; no one cares if they're killed. It's not as PC to say that you want all human criminals put down, because they have families and friends with voices to say no, and they have voices to explain and defend themselves. Dogs can only bark and growl and bite when they're in trouble... and that only "proves" our right to destroy them.

[MarMar]

This is not a popular opinion, but I am so sick of people blaming dogs for their own ignorance is laziness. ALL BREEDS OF DOGS ARE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS! A Rottwieler does not kill because it's a Rottweiler, a Rottweiler kills because it's a massive animal with huge jaws, and any bite on a small child is likely to be lethal. It doesn't have to be intentional. Something as simple as a warning snap can equal death, or an animal trying to play. BABIES DIE BECAUSE THEY ARE FRAGILE! How many stories do you hear about a Jack Russel killing a 40 year old man? Very rarely, if ever. Does that mean that Jack Russels are therefore a better behaved breed of dog, and they have more right to live because of it? No it bloody well does not. If you have children, you should not have dogs that are big enough to hurt them! It's f***ing logic! I'm sick of people wanting the prettiest, "coolest" most impressive dog, and then one day thinking that's not enough for them, they'd rather have the vanity of having a little version of themselves running about because that's so much more satisfying. Then what happens to the dog? The dog can't say, "hey, pay attention to me." The dog doesn't get to slap it's new little brother or sister with a toy and say "I don't like the baby! Mummy and daddy don't love me as much anymore" and get away with it like a human child. The dog, if the attack IS intentional, sees something small and weak getting preference where it shouldn't - pack mentality dictates that the weaker animal is submissive, unless it's the leader. The parents are the leaders, so the weaker animal, in this case the child, should be submissive. But children are not like that - they think that everything is theirs to grab and poke and scream at - so when they try that with a dog who thinks it's being insubordinate, the reaction of the dog is to put that child in it's place - the bottom of the pack - and it can't do that with gentle smacks on the hand and "no, don't do that," it does it with it's weight but pushing the kid down, and with it's teeth by snapping at the child to make sure it knows that the dog is dominant.

THIS IS NOT EVIL, UNUSUAL BEHAVIOUR! THIS IS NORMAL ANIMAL INSTINCT. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BREED!!!

Pit bulls, staffies, and the like are more dangerous because they have lock-jaw, which means that once they bite down on something and their jaw locks, they can't let go even if they wanted to. So think about this, you're a dog, you've snapped at a lower ranking animal, your jaw has locked... what do you do? Do you stand there all day listening to something screaming in your ear, or do you pull away? Well, I for one would pull away. And with a child's skin being so soft, that kind of action does enormous damage whether it's intentional or not.

DOGS ARE NOT THE TOOLS OF SATAN! THEY ARE FLESH AND BLOOD ANIMALS WITH INSTINCTIVELY DEFINED CONCEPTS OF SOCIAL STRUCTURE, VARYING PERSONALITIES WHICH ARE AS MUCH DETERMINED BY RACE AS HUMAN BEINGS, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE MISTAKES.

As much as I love dogs, I don't pretend that they have all the mental capabilities of humans. They don't understand our language, they don't understand that "this is the baby, you're not allowed to be rough with it." They don't understand that if you run at a child and jump up on it, it will probably be knocked down and cry. What they'll understand - after the fact - is that they will get in trouble if they do that again. Unfortunately, dogs don't have the luxury of a second chance. If an animal is even suspected of being dangerous, it's put down. There is no doggie jail, there is only the needle. Even dogs who have done NOTHING wrong meet this fate, because their owner gets bored of them, they're not pretty enough, they bark too much, etc... Human beings have a lot to answer for when it comes to the treatment of dogs, not least of which is the popular villainisation and eventual genocide of certain races, just because - after we've created them for our own disgusting purposes of "sport" (pit bulls get their name from being bred to kill each other in pits, so that humans can bet on them for fun...) - they've suddenly become inconvenient. And as we all know, if something is no longer convenient for human beings, it no longer has a right to exist.

Imagine if every human that punched someone in a fight was instantly put down - killed - because they were deemed to be too dangerous to live in society. Now imagine if several humans of the same race were put down for the same reason, and people began to talk of banning that race from breeding, or from migrating to certain countries, or better yet, killing every person of that race just in case they become aggressive in the future - even if the individuals have never done anything wrong in their lives. Would you call that fair? I wouldn't. I'd call it wrong, appalling, cruel, and disgusting.

I wonder how many news reports there'll be next year of animals being abused, neglected, and pointlessly killed by humans, and if any human found doing that will be put down for it? Oh that's right, no one cares about animals. Those people will probably get a slap on the wrist, and sent back into the world to kill again. Just as long as the dogs are put down, we'll all be safe

Thank you!

[Cal]

All dogs are different. Pitbulls and Rottwielers etc are just more aggressive. It's a psychological thing. They're like humans. Some humans are calm, some are violent and dangerous. It's life. Blaming the dog isn't right. The owner should consider that a young baby or child is either in their house or area.

Rottwielers wouldn't be my first choice for a pet. I prefer cats that are playful but also affectionate. My cat can be vicious, but he only attacks if he is provoked. It's a defense mechanism. If somebody was pulling your tail or poking you in the face, you'd give them a good scrape.

I heard a few years ago that a guy in the US got his Pitbull and put its face in the BBQ. The pitbull had to be put down and that person was sent to jail. Animal cruelty is a major problem. People don't seem to care if a cat has just been run over with a lawnmower intentionally or a dog has been put in a bag and thrown in a river. I here people saying "I heard this guy in the Czech Republic stuck his kitten in the microwave. That's so cool!" People are sick sometimes and something needs to be done.

Ooops, I've gone off on a tangent about cruelty to animals - but I DON'T CARE! Click HERE!

[emmasi]

Dogs... no one cares if they're killed.

I have some faith renewed. The news just ran a story on three members of the Bulldogs rugby league team shutting themselves in a hot car to show people what it's like for real dogs that get left like that and often die. It's so nice to be reminded that someone somewhere actually cares

[Frankie]

Fascinating debate... some strong feelings...

2 points... its not just big dogs... there have been cases of dogs lie Jacl russelss attacking and killing babies... dogs bite..

Well, I wasn't going to reply to this post because no, I won't EVER change my mind about kids being more important than dogs.

On this point me and ILM are in total agreement.. I love dogs and animals and I am totally against animal cruelty but I think that as a society we have lost sight of the ball. As some of you know I work in child care...and I give you this example..... this is a TRUE case... it was when I was in the UK... a guy was up in court on 2 counts, cruelty to an animal and child cruelty. The cruelty to an animal consisted of chaining the dog up, not letting it out and not feeding it properly... the dog was rescued and recovered in a matter of weeks. The child cruelty consisted of the man picking up his baby son and winging him against the wall and bashing his head . The perfectly healthy son was subsequently made blind, deaf, mentally disabled, and paralyzed by the injuries he sustained, and will never lead a normal life. He got a longer prison sentence for the cruelty to an animal because this is totally inexcusable, but apparently getting frustrated by the cries of a baby is understandable. It's cases like this which make me think we have seriously got our priorities wrong.

[emmasi]

People get stuck with kids. You have sex, you get yourself or someone else pregnant, and then if you don't want the kid you're screwed. I can understand the frustration of that. That's in no way saying that violence to children or anyone else is okay, but I can see how a person could feel trapped and lose it. It costs $50 to surrender a dog to the pound. It's free to dump it in a night cage and leave it there if it's not registered... If you don't want a dog or you can't take care of it, number one, you don't have to buy it or take it in in the first place. Number two, it takes next to nothing to give it up to a better home. But if you choose to keep it around just to starve and abuse it, then yeah, you're a sick sadistic bastard and you deserve to be punished for it.

And if a dog had been left with those sorts of injuries and disabilities, it wouldn't have been re-homed, it would be put down.

[Formerly Known as FKAJ]

Jem, I seriously hope you wouldn't consider the scenario you just described as a justification for a case like Brian Stewart. He was in much the same situation, with a baby he didn't want, and he commits (quite literally) cold blooded murder. I'm not going to describe it here, you can look it up on Wikipedia.