Vegetarians

[Alexei]

No, NZ but thanks for the link, I'll definately have a look !!

There's a great veg*n forum in Queensland (Aus) that has a couple of New Zealanders:

http://www.vegsoc.org.au/forum.asp

[suzannelgnz]

Today is World Vegetarian day too.

[Cal]

Maybe I could find some iron supplement which doesn't give me a stabbing pain in my stomach ...

Cal, my teenage daughter has been a vegetarian for three years now. Like many teenagers, and despite my best efforts, most of her diet is made up junk food like pizzas (mostly homemade thankfully), chips and Coke. Getting her to eat vegetables and fruit is like WWIII most of the time. She doesn't take any vitamin supplements.

Anyway, the point of all that is, is that last week she had blood tests and iron, B12 (the only vitamin vegans can't get from their diet) etc. were all perfectly normal. By the way B12 is added to many veg*n products such as some soy milk brands.

I realise some people do have low iron levels for various reasons, I do think the need for vitamin supplements is a product of the vitamin industry.

Edit: Alexei, LOL @ your avatar! The smiley face is awesome!

Thanks, Cal, I will you send you a copy of the smiley face if you want it.

Edit: here it is:

Cheers.

Yeah, I have low Iron levels due to medical reasons, unfortunately. So I need to keep it up, but it's kinda difficult as I don't like steak or any red meat that much. I do like Fish however, at least they don't go through the torture and the long process of dying like pigs, cows and chickens. (But I don't like how the Spanish and Japanese use giant hoovers to suck up all the sea-bed, that's just plain stupid). Anyway...

I tried to go vegetarian when I was younger, but I had no luck. I lasted about a week because my parents kept cooking meat meals and they never made the effort to make separate meals. They said they weren't going to the fuss. Then as soon as my sister moved out, she went Vegetarian. I may do the same, or not eat red meat... it would be cheaper for a poor student anyway.

Thanks for the smiley, it's awesome!

[lucylinda]

No, NZ but thanks for the link, I'll definately have a look !!

There's a great veg*n forum in Queensland (Aus) that has a couple of New Zealanders:

http://www.vegsoc.org.au/forum.asp

I'll have a look there too.... many thanks

[emmasi]

I watched the video. I find it hard to believe that that would be common practice. The chickens, probably. The pigs, maybe. But the cows? I really can't believe that that's how cattle are treated in Australia. Are there any videos like that from an Australian factory or slaughterhouse? I'm not eating American meat, after all. I want to be informed of what I'm eating, not of what they're eating, and not of what their industry standards allow. I'm aware that Peta is against docking the tails off sheep, but sheep get bad infections from flies if this isn't done. Maybe there is another way, but the point is, the farmers aren't docking them for fun. The people in those videos looked to me like they were enjoying the cruelty they were inflicting, which most people wouldn't. Most people would see their livestock as valuable property - why would they want to wreck their own property? I know it may not be ethical to speak of animals as if they're soulless objects, but if that's how people saw them, why would they want to break something they own? It makes no sense to me.

Animals kill to eat. We are animals. We might think we're something special, but we share 98% of our DNA with Chimpanzees, and it wouldn't be a huge leap from that to meat-eating baboons. We're nothing special. We have a conscience and a choice, but as an animal lover, I believe every animal has that conscience and choice, as well as instinct. If your instinct is to eat meat, then that means that something in your body needs it. It's not propaganda. As I said before, we have canine teeth - we're omnivores. If we were herbivores, all of our teeth would be flat like a horse. But they're not. Many people don't have that instinct, or they overcome their instincts as an ethical choice, believing they have a moral responsibility to do so because as humans, we're supposed to be better than all other animals. I personally don't feel that responsibility, I don't think I'm better than any other animal. If a shark or a crocodile or a bear or a tiger tried to eat me, I wouldn't call it unethical for doing so, and I certainly wouldn't want it hunted down and killed by other morally outraged humans... That would be cruel, wouldn't it? Expecting an animal to deny it's instinct, shaming it and punishing it for grabbing an easy meal? That's what store-bought meat is, an easy meal. And I feed my cats the same way without wishing they would become vegetarians to rid us all of guilt.

If I was starving in the wilderness, I'd be more inclined to try and catch a bird and hack it's head off than I would to try and work out how to get the same amount of nutrition and energy out of a bunch of vegetation that I don't like the taste of and don't understand what they do for my body. Since I'm not in the wilderness, my lack of knowledge about vegan alternatives comes down to laziness, but that works both ways for me. It's a matter of convenience that I eat meat because my family eats it. If I was on my own, I wouldn't keep red meat at home because I hate cooking it - I can never work out how to do it right. So that, again, comes down to laziness, not an ethical choice. I would still eat meat at restaurants because I don't believe that eating meat is wrong. If I believed that, I would personally have to believe that eating vegetables is wrong too, as I believe that all living things have a spirit; if I shuddered every time I ate a carrot, thinking of how it was ripped out of the ground, skinned, and boiled and cut into pieces, I wouldn't survive very long at all. But carrots and other vegetables don't move or make noise so it's hard to know what they're feeling. Animals do, and people, unconsciously realising that they themselves are animals, feel sympathetic to them because when an animal uses it's voice to cry out, you can relate to it. But where is the line? Would you kill a Venus fly trap if you saw it move? Would it be more alive to you and more worthy of living than the carrot? Or would you see it as a wrong thing, something that kills other living creatures to eat? It makes no sense to me to draw such hard and fast lines about what is wrong and what is right when it comes to the things we eat to survive.

Now then. That is a completely different argument to the treatment of animals, since we can see clearly from videos like that that some animals are horribly mistreated and that is appalling in any situation, not just the food industry. But as I said at the start of this post, I can't believe that this is how all factories and slaughterhouses operate. Perhaps I'm just being naive, or I'm denying the truth in order to sleep at night with a full belly of meat, but let me put it this way: you've shown me that video and implied that this is how all animals are treated before slaughter. I could take you to the pound and show you dogs that have been beaten, burned, cut, tortured, starved, diseased, thrown out of cars, drowned, etc, but would you see those dogs and then make the assumption that all dog owners treat their animals that way? I don't think you would, so I'm not going to look at one video that doesn't even come from the place where I get my meat and decide that that's how it is.

I probably sound very confrontational, but that video was confronting. It's clear you feel very strongly about this, but I feel strongly about being judged on the basis of a biased video that equates cruelty with consumption. People who eat meat do not automatically enjoy or endorse the cruelty that goes with it. Perhaps if we worked together to reach a compromise, we could have people eating meat and getting milk and eggs etc by processes that are much more humane. But if you tell someone "YOU ARE EVIL AND IGNORANT FOR DOING WHAT YOU DO AND YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH YOURSELF UNTIL YOU DO EXACTLY WHAT WE SAY!" then what else can you expect than for people to turn away and say, screw you and the cow you rode in on? By the way, I'm not saying that to you, but I can see why a lot of people would. Confrontation breeds contempt. Understanding and compromise breeds understanding and compromise.

My apologies to the starter of this thread. I don't think you intended for it to become an ethical debate

[superman's girlfriend]

[bttb-rox!]

Personally I stopped eating meat because of the whole 'dead animal' thing. I'm a big animal lover and hearing about some of the things they do to kill the cows, sheep etc put me off meat in a big way.

That's exactly why I became a vegetarian in January of this year. Animals are my big passion of mine and I didn't feel I could say without feeling an overpowering sense of guilt, 'Animals are wonderful creatures and I love them dearly' when come dinner time I was eating a chicken. And by that I'm not saying that you can't love animals and still eat meat - not at all. I have days and I'm sure other vegetarians and vegans do when I think, 'I would absolutely love a bacon roll or a chicken sandwich or just something meaty'. I had one of those days today and it took so much willpower for me to stop myself from not sticking to my 'veggie pledge'. But then I thought back to why I made the decision and I was able to pull myself away from the sausage roll that seemed to be walking towards me .

For the first week of being a vegetarian I thought, 'Oh no, what on earth have I got myself into'. But you do get used to it. Like I said earlier on, there will be days when you miss the things you've decided to cut out, but if you're absolutely determined to keep your resolve of not eating those products anymore, you should find it easier to stop thinking about them.

And while us vegetarians have made the choice not to eat certain foods, I think it's vital for people who do eat them to realize that the global vegetarian community doesn't dislike or think any less of those who do. I certainly don't feel that way and I hope that that's the case with other people who are also non-meat eaters. If someone I knew was interested in becoming a vegetarian or a vegan, I'd be more than happy to give them information on whatever they wanted to know but only if it's what they wanted. I would never try and convince a person that they should do it unless they expressed interest first. I would perhaps state the positive benefits of becoming a vegetarian or a vegan, but it really is their desicion at the end of the day and is something which each individual has the right to decide and I respect that 100% .

[jenlee]

bttb-rox! - everything you said is basically the same for me. If I see a big juicy peice of steak sitting there, ready to be eaten I not only think about the way it may have been killed but also about the fact that it was once an actual cow. And I love cows. True, farm animals are basically bred to become someone's dinner but personally, when I look at a cow or a sheep (especially a sheep) I see a cute animal that I want to hug as much as I want to hug my cats...despite how much they smell and despite the fact that they are generally not treated as pets.

However I totally get what emmasi is saying because the whole 'to eat or not to eat meat' thing is a personal choice and in no way am I going to judge or critisize anyone who does eat it. As I said in my first post, I don't know any other vegetarians, meaning my family, all my friends and my husband, who I cook meat for, all eat meat. And that is fine. They choose to eat meat, I choose not to and everyone is happy.

[lucylinda]

Yeah, I'd just like to mention that I'm ok for people to eat meat. I just don't.

Of course, free range of 'happy' meat is obviously preferable, but for some people there are money constraints etc which may stop them from choosing this option.

My whole family are veges and I've never been in contact with meat in my life, so I guess I'm from a slightly different viewpoint from other people, as I may not even be a vege if my parents hadn't made me one.

I do understand that humans were made to eat meat, and that it's an ethical choice more than anything.

I have written an opinion piece describing myths, stereotypes etc. Let me know if you would like me to post it.

Jenlee- I do admire you cooking meat for your family, I can't stand being around it (again, due to the fact that I never have been!!) I'm not looking forward to having to cook meat for my husband and children... Will be interesting to see me stuffing a chicken etc.

I am, btw emmasi enjoying reading your interesting points.

[emmasi]

I come from an interesting family when it comes to food. My parents are omnivores who eat mostly red meat and junk food, and since I still live with them, that's what I eat. It's not healthy, but it's convenient. I actually don't eat a lot of red meat anymore because I've gone off the taste of it, but chicken is probably my favourite food (after corn!) and I may be physically addicted to mozzerella cheese... My oldest brother is an omnivore as well, but he's very into health food and likes to cook everything fresh himself. My oldest sister is also into health food, and she is a vegetarian. Her husband is not and neither are her kids, so she still cooks meat for them. She's lactose intolerant, so that cuts out dairy. My youngest brother is a carnivore - his wife has to force him to eat vegetables because she's afraid he'll get sick if he doesn't. He prefers to exist on meat, potatoes, and bread. I also have a friend who barely eats anything but chips and toast, lol.

What I'm saying is, since I've grown up with all this diversity, I don't care if people don't eat meat, or if they don't eat vegetables, or if they don't eat anything they don't want to. It's all good with me. I just don't like being told that I'm a bad person for eating meat. I've seen animals killed for food, and I've watched animals growing up, knowing that that's what they're being raised for. It's not something I like, because every animal has a right to live, but it's something I've accepted because I have a right to live too. So do my cats, who are eating the ground-up offcuts from the same slaughterhouses that my meat comes from. I find it so strange that people can be so against eating meat and then turn around and feed it to their pets. Where do you think pet food comes from? If, knowing that it comes from a slaughterhouse, you can't bring yourself to buy it anymore, do you let your pets starve? Do you take them to the vet and say "Please put my dog down humanely, I can no longer contribute to the suffering of other animals by feeding it meat"? Maybe you will, but I won't be doing that to my cats, no matter how many cans of Whiskas they go through, or how many bugs and rodents I watch them torment.

Ideally, human beings wouldn't have pets. Dogs and cats wouldn't be introduced to other ecosystems, destroying the native wildlife for fun and then coming home to a nice bowl of processed farm animals for their convenience. We wouldn't spend millions of dollars taking care of them while millions of other human beings go hungry. We wouldn't have houses or stable civilizations taking over natural wilderness. We wouldn't have organized communities. We'd all be hunting and gathering our own food as indivuduals on a day to day basis in our own allocated habitats, surviving on the bare essentials and trying not to be picked off by other predators - we would have no safe houses or fences or weapons or even sympathetic guard dogs to defend ourselves from them, only our natural instinct to stay out of their way. We wouldn't have medicine or surgery - if you get sick or injured or have some other deficiency, you die as a form of population control and as a way of keeping the gene pool strong. Agriculture wouldn't exist, as it not only contributes to pollution, but also deforestation and extinction. We wouldn't have even discovered a use for fire, since smoke is bad for the atmosphere too. But all these things do exist. They have for hundreds of thousands of years. For whatever reason, human beings are designed to operate this way, changing the world to suit us rather than us changing to suit the world, and the introduction of machinery to do our dirty work - using electronic bolts to kill instead of a bow and arrow, or our bare hands - isn't really any more or less horrific, it's just more efficient which allows for faster turn over of corpses to supply a growing demand as the population expands and wants to consume more and more resources leading to more and more waste. Something's gotta give, and since animals and plants can't talk, and we can therefore pretend they don't think and feel things that we do, they're the ones who take the hit.

You can stop these things from happening, but then what? Where do you put the million chickens you've just freed from the factory? Do you cut down a few hundred trees to build a fenced off farm for them to live in safely? Do you take grain ear-marked for the starving children of Africa and feed it to the chickens so that they become fat and healthy and multiply? Do you release them into the wild where they'll compete with native species for food and ultimately wipe the other species out due to the sheer volume of numbers? Do you kill them and put them all and put them out of their misery? How are you going to kill that many chickens in a humane way? Will you euthanise them, taking resources from stray cats and dogs at shelters, or even human beings who want to end their suffering? How long will it take you to kill each chicken individually with the help of a qualified vet? How many needles will you go through? Will they all go to landfill? How long will the animals keep suffering while they wait for you to get to them? If you kill them, what happens to their bodies? If you're not eating their meat, using their blood and bone for fertilizer, stuffing their feathers into pillows or colouring them and selling them for handicrafts, grinding up any unsaleable organs for pet food... what are you doing with the bodies? Will you burn them and pollute the atmosphere? Will you bury them and contribute to landfill? What will you do?

There are too many questions and too many things that I personally just don't need to think about. Chicken tastes good, so I eat it. Lamb tastes bad, so I don't eat it. Steak is iffy at the moment, so I eat it when I feel like it. Same with pig products. If you start thinking about the ethics of human society and the impact our species has on every other species, our planet, and our fellow man, you'll see that there has been far too much damage done to undo it now in a way that will keep everyone happy, so I say just do what makes YOU happy. If eating meat makes you happy, do that. If not eating meat makes you happy, by all means do that too. Guilt and anxiety will give you a stomach ache faster than any cheeseburger will.