Gay Love

[Jess]

It seems like there are alot of people that have problems with Gays in here

Presuming that's me you're talking about, right, since I seem to be the only one who's offered any kind of difference of opinion. So what if I have a problem with the homosexual lifestyle? a) I don't hate the person, I have a lot of gay friends, and b) I don't agree with you, big deal. I'm not being derogatory or homophobic, as far as I'm aware, so is it really so much to ask to respect my opinion if it's not hurting anyone else?

I don't agree with people who don't agree with people being gay, but I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to insult and ridicule those people for not agreeing with me if I expect them to respect me for not agreeing with them.

I will say that, as a Christian, I get offended when people assume that homophobia and religion go hand in hand. They don't have to. I believe in a God who wants love and peace for all his children, but I also believe that a lot of those children find excuses to hate and hurt each other, and then point to God and say that it's what he wants them to do. I haven't read the Bible recently, but I don't think it says anywhere in there that it's okay to kill someone for being gay. And if it does, I need to get me a new religion, because I certainly didn't sign up for that. I also don't believe that God judges people based on their sexuality. I believe he made us the way we are for a reason, and that reason is to find love with the right person, whether they be male or female. I do not believe that love is a sin, and I can't understand why anyone could ever believe that it is.

This is the thing, though - religion and homophobia do not, or are not meant to, go hand-in-hand at all. The definition of 'homophobia' as found when I Googled it and picked a random dictionary is:

Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

I'm not scared of homosexual people, they're perfectly nice human beings. To show contempt for someone, as defined by the same dictionary, means 'to show or feel strong dislike or disrespect'. As I've said before, I don't dislike gay people, nor do I disrespect them. Granted, there are some factions of Christianity who are very disrespectful, and it certainly wouldn't be too far as to say they're homophobic, but they're very much in the minority. However, this doesn't mean that I agree with what emmasi's saying. You believe in a God 'who wants love... for all His children.' Loving someone doesn't mean accepting that every action they do is right. You can still love the person without loving the action.

So just because there's some nutters who go to extreme lengths to get their point across and then blame God, this means that no-one can hold a similar opinion even if their actions surrounding it are different? For example, two wrong don't make a right, right? So if someone murdered someone, and then another person took it upon themselves to murder that person, we probably wouldn't be too impressed? Because at the end of the day, it's pretty much the job of the state to punish how they see fit, instead of mob vigilantes. Does that mean that I can't hate what the murderer's done without being associated with the nutter who tried to kill him? That I can't air my views on the murderer without being branded an ignorant person? 'Cause that's almost what it seems like here.

No offence, but if you say you haven't read your Bible recently, then maybe that's a part of it, too? Not that I'm saying you're ignorant, or anything, or even have to read it, just that if you want to get the Christian perspective then maybe you should...

[Emma]

It seems like there are alot of people that have problems with Gays in here

Presuming that's me you're talking about, right, since I seem to be the only one who's offered any kind of difference of opinion. So what if I have a problem with the homosexual lifestyle? a) I don't hate the person, I have a lot of gay friends, and b) I don't agree with you, big deal. I'm not being derogatory or homophobic, as far as I'm aware, so is it really so much to ask to respect my opinion if it's not hurting anyone else?

I don't agree with people who don't agree with people being gay, but I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to insult and ridicule those people for not agreeing with me if I expect them to respect me for not agreeing with them.

I will say that, as a Christian, I get offended when people assume that homophobia and religion go hand in hand. They don't have to. I believe in a God who wants love and peace for all his children, but I also believe that a lot of those children find excuses to hate and hurt each other, and then point to God and say that it's what he wants them to do. I haven't read the Bible recently, but I don't think it says anywhere in there that it's okay to kill someone for being gay. And if it does, I need to get me a new religion, because I certainly didn't sign up for that. I also don't believe that God judges people based on their sexuality. I believe he made us the way we are for a reason, and that reason is to find love with the right person, whether they be male or female. I do not believe that love is a sin, and I can't understand why anyone could ever believe that it is.

This is the thing, though - religion and homophobia do not, or are not meant to, go hand-in-hand at all. The definition of 'homophobia' as found when I Googled it and picked a random dictionary is:

Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

I'm not scared of homosexual people, they're perfectly nice human beings. To show contempt for someone, as defined by the same dictionary, means 'to show or feel strong dislike or disrespect'. As I've said before, I don't dislike gay people, nor do I disrespect them. Granted, there are some factions of Christianity who are very disrespectful, and it certainly wouldn't be too far as to say they're homophobic, but they're very much in the minority. However, this doesn't mean that I agree with what emmasi's saying. You believe in a God 'who wants love... for all His children.' Loving someone doesn't mean accepting that every action they do is right. You can still love the person without loving the action.

So just because there's some nutters who go to extreme lengths to get their point across and then blame God, this means that no-one can hold a similar opinion even if their actions surrounding it are different? For example, two wrong don't make a right, right? So if someone murdered someone, and then another person took it upon themselves to murder that person, we probably wouldn't be too impressed? Because at the end of the day, it's pretty much the job of the state to punish how they see fit, instead of mob vigilantes. Does that mean that I can't hate what the murderer's done without being associated with the nutter who tried to kill him? That I can't air my views on the murderer without being branded an ignorant person? 'Cause that's almost what it seems like here.

No offence, but if you say you haven't read your Bible recently, then maybe that's a part of it, too? Not that I'm saying you're ignorant, or anything, or even have to read it, just that if you want to get the Christian perspective then maybe you should...

If you don't respect Gay/Lesbian people, you shouldn't be in here arguing about it, Im not. And no, I did not mean you.

[Jess]

It seems like there are alot of people that have problems with Gays in here

Presuming that's me you're talking about, right, since I seem to be the only one who's offered any kind of difference of opinion. So what if I have a problem with the homosexual lifestyle? a) I don't hate the person, I have a lot of gay friends, and b) I don't agree with you, big deal. I'm not being derogatory or homophobic, as far as I'm aware, so is it really so much to ask to respect my opinion if it's not hurting anyone else?

I don't agree with people who don't agree with people being gay, but I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to insult and ridicule those people for not agreeing with me if I expect them to respect me for not agreeing with them.

I will say that, as a Christian, I get offended when people assume that homophobia and religion go hand in hand. They don't have to. I believe in a God who wants love and peace for all his children, but I also believe that a lot of those children find excuses to hate and hurt each other, and then point to God and say that it's what he wants them to do. I haven't read the Bible recently, but I don't think it says anywhere in there that it's okay to kill someone for being gay. And if it does, I need to get me a new religion, because I certainly didn't sign up for that. I also don't believe that God judges people based on their sexuality. I believe he made us the way we are for a reason, and that reason is to find love with the right person, whether they be male or female. I do not believe that love is a sin, and I can't understand why anyone could ever believe that it is.

This is the thing, though - religion and homophobia do not, or are not meant to, go hand-in-hand at all. The definition of 'homophobia' as found when I Googled it and picked a random dictionary is:

Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

I'm not scared of homosexual people, they're perfectly nice human beings. To show contempt for someone, as defined by the same dictionary, means 'to show or feel strong dislike or disrespect'. As I've said before, I don't dislike gay people, nor do I disrespect them. Granted, there are some factions of Christianity who are very disrespectful, and it certainly wouldn't be too far as to say they're homophobic, but they're very much in the minority. However, this doesn't mean that I agree with what emmasi's saying. You believe in a God 'who wants love... for all His children.' Loving someone doesn't mean accepting that every action they do is right. You can still love the person without loving the action.

So just because there's some nutters who go to extreme lengths to get their point across and then blame God, this means that no-one can hold a similar opinion even if their actions surrounding it are different? For example, two wrong don't make a right, right? So if someone murdered someone, and then another person took it upon themselves to murder that person, we probably wouldn't be too impressed? Because at the end of the day, it's pretty much the job of the state to punish how they see fit, instead of mob vigilantes. Does that mean that I can't hate what the murderer's done without being associated with the nutter who tried to kill him? That I can't air my views on the murderer without being branded an ignorant person? 'Cause that's almost what it seems like here.

No offence, but if you say you haven't read your Bible recently, then maybe that's a part of it, too? Not that I'm saying you're ignorant, or anything, or even have to read it, just that if you want to get the Christian perspective then maybe you should...

If you don't respect Gay/Lesbian people, you shouldn't be in here arguing about it, Im not. And no, I did not mean you.

If you didn't mean me, then why did you quote my argument? It sounds like you think I don't respect gay people, which is what I've been trying to clarify strenuously through my arguments! And, err, I thought the point of the thread was to have debate and discussion on the matter? I'm pretty sure there's the Rainbow Room if you just want lots of gay love?

[Emma]

It seems like there are alot of people that have problems with Gays in here

Presuming that's me you're talking about, right, since I seem to be the only one who's offered any kind of difference of opinion. So what if I have a problem with the homosexual lifestyle? a) I don't hate the person, I have a lot of gay friends, and b) I don't agree with you, big deal. I'm not being derogatory or homophobic, as far as I'm aware, so is it really so much to ask to respect my opinion if it's not hurting anyone else?

I don't agree with people who don't agree with people being gay, but I suppose it would be hypocritical of me to insult and ridicule those people for not agreeing with me if I expect them to respect me for not agreeing with them.

I will say that, as a Christian, I get offended when people assume that homophobia and religion go hand in hand. They don't have to. I believe in a God who wants love and peace for all his children, but I also believe that a lot of those children find excuses to hate and hurt each other, and then point to God and say that it's what he wants them to do. I haven't read the Bible recently, but I don't think it says anywhere in there that it's okay to kill someone for being gay. And if it does, I need to get me a new religion, because I certainly didn't sign up for that. I also don't believe that God judges people based on their sexuality. I believe he made us the way we are for a reason, and that reason is to find love with the right person, whether they be male or female. I do not believe that love is a sin, and I can't understand why anyone could ever believe that it is.

This is the thing, though - religion and homophobia do not, or are not meant to, go hand-in-hand at all. The definition of 'homophobia' as found when I Googled it and picked a random dictionary is:

Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

I'm not scared of homosexual people, they're perfectly nice human beings. To show contempt for someone, as defined by the same dictionary, means 'to show or feel strong dislike or disrespect'. As I've said before, I don't dislike gay people, nor do I disrespect them. Granted, there are some factions of Christianity who are very disrespectful, and it certainly wouldn't be too far as to say they're homophobic, but they're very much in the minority. However, this doesn't mean that I agree with what emmasi's saying. You believe in a God 'who wants love... for all His children.' Loving someone doesn't mean accepting that every action they do is right. You can still love the person without loving the action.

So just because there's some nutters who go to extreme lengths to get their point across and then blame God, this means that no-one can hold a similar opinion even if their actions surrounding it are different? For example, two wrong don't make a right, right? So if someone murdered someone, and then another person took it upon themselves to murder that person, we probably wouldn't be too impressed? Because at the end of the day, it's pretty much the job of the state to punish how they see fit, instead of mob vigilantes. Does that mean that I can't hate what the murderer's done without being associated with the nutter who tried to kill him? That I can't air my views on the murderer without being branded an ignorant person? 'Cause that's almost what it seems like here.

No offence, but if you say you haven't read your Bible recently, then maybe that's a part of it, too? Not that I'm saying you're ignorant, or anything, or even have to read it, just that if you want to get the Christian perspective then maybe you should...

If you don't respect Gay/Lesbian people, you shouldn't be in here arguing about it, Im not. And no, I did not mean you.

If you didn't mean me, then why did you quote my argument? It sounds like you think I don't respect gay people, which is what I've been trying to clarify strenuously through my arguments! And, err, I thought the point of the thread was to have debate and discussion on the matter? I'm pretty sure there's the Rainbow Room if you just want lots of gay love?

I didn't quote your argument before. I was reading some other posts that people had wrote on here, and it looked like someone really didn't respect us. The rainbow room? Lmao, Im sorry, I have a girlfriend.

[emmasi]

No offence, but if you say you haven't read your Bible recently, then maybe that's a part of it, too? Not that I'm saying you're ignorant, or anything, or even have to read it, just that if you want to get the Christian perspective then maybe you should...

I am largely ignorant of organised religion, and happy to be so. I call myself Christian because I believe that Christ was the son of God, as we are all children of God, and that he allowed himself to be persecuted, humiliated, tortured and killed by misguided people who thought they were acting in God's name by crucifying a blasphemer. It is my belief that Christ then came back to life to show those people how wrong they were for doing that, and that no-one has a right to judge and condemn people but God, in the hopes that no-one would have to suffer like that on Earth ever again. It was a nice idea, but it clearly didn't work. We still have people committing unspeakable hate crimes in the name of God, and others who think that it's okay to expect God to take care of the ones that the haters don't get to by condemning them to Hell when they eventually die.

You say you have gay friends. Do you expect to see them in Heaven? Or do you think that God will send them to Hell because they are gay? Are you okay with them going to Hell, if that's the case? Do your friends know that you expect them to go to Hell for no other reason than they happen to be attracted to, and in love with, people of the same sex? How do you think it would make them feel if you did think that? How do you think they would feel if you expected them to change who they are, or else prepare to burn for all eternity?

These may not be your beliefs, but they are representative of some people who say the things that you say. I know this because I have met them. In their view, there is no room for interpretation. The Bible is God's word (because it hasn't been changed about a hundred times through different translations and agendas...) and that's that. Those who don't follow it to the letter are making their own perverted bed, and they will have to lie in it.

You say that your beliefs don't hurt anyone, but they do. It is your choice to believe what you've been taught, and you're therefore very lucky that you yourself (I assume) do not feel any sexual orientation towards someone of the same sex. If you did, and you still believed in this aspect of your religion, your life would be a living Hell. There'd be no need for God to judge you, because the people who taught you to believe so strongly that your feelings are evil and wrong would be doing it for you. The guilt and shame would eat you alive, living day to day trying to hide who you are for fear of being condemned by your family, your church, and ultimately your God, who you know you cannot hide the truth from no matter what. You would wonder if God made you this way on purpose, to torture you into some purer path where the only way you can avoid going to Hell is to live a lie and be with someone you don't love who does things to you that may physically disgust you, but if it's what God wants, then it's what you must suffer to be a good Christian. Jesus was whipped, nailed to a cross, and left to rot for days - what's having uncomfortable and unsatisfying sex, never knowing true pleasure or true love for the rest of your life, compared to that? Or, if that's too much to take, you could kill yourself now and just burn in Hell straight away, since you'll be ending up there anyway (because you know that God won't really be fooled by that handsome husband and the 2.5 kids when you've really got your eye on your neighbour's wife). Perhaps the shame brought to your family by a suicide wouldn't be as bad as the shame brought to them by knowing you were gay. The church might even allow you to be buried on their grounds, if you make it look like an accident.

To be clear, I'm not actually suggesting that you or anyone else in this hypothetical situation should commit suicide, but people do and it's because of the belief that their feelings - their love, and nothing more or less than love - for someone of the same sex is an offense to God. They die believing that they are evil, impure, and perverted animals, or else they die to escape being seen that way by the people who are supposed to love them. No one should have to suffer like that to feel like a good person when they haven't done anything wrong.

I am bisexual, and I am a Christian. When I die, I expect to be judged for a lot of things, but being attracted to both men and women is not one of them.

Comparing homosexuals to murderers is not fair and it is not okay. Murder may be a choice, it may be a genetic compulsion, but murder DOES hurt people. Murder takes something away that cannot be replaced, and that creates an understandable level of contempt and disgust. Homosexuality DOES NOT hurt people. It DOES NOT take anything away. The only thing that is taken is taken FROM homosexuals, and that is the right to live a normal life, free from harassment, discrimination, and condemnation.

[Eli]

Just a quick reminder to everyone (not aimed at anyone in particular, don't worry) that there shouldn't be any personal attacks, generalizing and discrimination. Please try to remember to respect each others' opinions, even if you don't agree. It's not too bad yet, just saying as this seems like a discussion that could easily get out of hand. Please report if someone crosses the line & otherwise have fun discussing

[Emma]

Thanks For That Eli

[Jess]

No offence, but if you say you haven't read your Bible recently, then maybe that's a part of it, too? Not that I'm saying you're ignorant, or anything, or even have to read it, just that if you want to get the Christian perspective then maybe you should...

I am largely ignorant of organised religion, and happy to be so. I call myself Christian because I believe that Christ was the son of God, as we are all children of God, and that he allowed himself to be persecuted, humiliated, tortured and killed by misguided people who thought they were acting in God's name by crucifying a blasphemer. It is my belief that Christ then came back to life to show those people how wrong they were for doing that, and that no-one has a right to judge and condemn people but God, in the hopes that no-one would have to suffer like that on Earth ever again. It was a nice idea, but it clearly didn't work. We still have people committing unspeakable hate crimes in the name of God, and others who think that it's okay to expect God to take care of the ones that the haters don't get to by condemning them to Hell when they eventually die.

You say you have gay friends. Do you expect to see them in Heaven? Or do you think that God will send them to Hell because they are gay? Are you okay with them going to Hell, if that's the case? Do your friends know that you expect them to go to Hell for no other reason than they happen to be attracted to, and in love with, people of the same sex? How do you think it would make them feel if you did think that? How do you think they would feel if you expected them to change who they are, or else prepare to burn for all eternity?

Tbh, I'm not one to say who'll end up in Hell, because only God can be the judge of that. I'm well aware of the consequences of eternal damnation. My friends, luckily, are respectful of my religion, and they don't mind that I think that homosexuality is a sin - afterall, we're all sinners, and all sin is equal in the eyes of God. They know that I'd never actually discriminate against them as people. Besides, since they're largely not Christian, anyway, they just don't believe it, but at the same time they respect my beliefs, and I respect them as people, so it's all good.

These may not be your beliefs, but they are representative of some people who say the things that you say. I know this because I have met them. In their view, there is no room for interpretation. The Bible is God's word (because it hasn't been changed about a hundred times through different translations and agendas...) and that's that. Those who don't follow it to the letter are making their own perverted bed, and they will have to lie in it.

You say that your beliefs don't hurt anyone, but they do. It is your choice to believe what you've been taught, and you're therefore very lucky that you yourself (I assume) do not feel any sexual orientation towards someone of the same sex. If you did, and you still believed in this aspect of your religion, your life would be a living Hell. There'd be no need for God to judge you, because the people who taught you to believe so strongly that your feelings are evil and wrong would be doing it for you. The guilt and shame would eat you alive, living day to day trying to hide who you are for fear of being condemned by your family, your church, and ultimately your God, who you know you cannot hide the truth from no matter what. You would wonder if God made you this way on purpose, to torture you into some purer path where the only way you can avoid going to Hell is to live a lie and be with someone you don't love who does things to you that may physically disgust you, but if it's what God wants, then it's what you must suffer to be a good Christian. Jesus was whipped, nailed to a cross, and left to rot for days - what's having uncomfortable and unsatisfying sex, never knowing true pleasure or true love for the rest of your life, compared to that? Or, if that's too much to take, you could kill yourself now and just burn in Hell straight away, since you'll be ending up there anyway (because you know that God won't really be fooled by that handsome husband and the 2.5 kids when you've really got your eye on your neighbour's wife). Perhaps the shame brought to your family by a suicide wouldn't be as bad as the shame brought to them by knowing you were gay. The church might even allow you to be buried on their grounds, if you make it look like an accident.

If someone's family are that judgemental of their own flesh and blood, then ultimately that's not God's fault. Like I've said, there's a difference between hating the person and hating the sin. God can't bear the sight of sin, but He loves the person unconditionally. If you're being condemned by the church, again that's not God's fault. Churches have a lot to answer for. At the same time, though, it sounds like you've had some pretty negative experiences, which certainly aren't representative of the Christian family in general. You're saying that Christianity condemns all homosexuals to Hell - what gives you the right, or indeed the knowledge - to make such a judgement? Lots of people have to go through lots of things that are horrible, and we don't know why. Homosexuality might be one of these things. Or, it might not be.

To be clear, I'm not actually suggesting that you or anyone else in this hypothetical situation should commit suicide, but people do and it's because of the belief that their feelings - their love, and nothing more or less than love - for someone of the same sex is an offense to God. They die believing that they are evil, impure, and perverted animals, or else they die to escape being seen that way by the people who are supposed to love them. No one should have to suffer like that to feel like a good person when they haven't done anything wrong.

You're right, people shouldn't commit suicide in this situation. No one has the right to say that another person is going to go to Hell - God is the ultimate judge. The only thing I'm saying is that I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle. If that drives people to feel like they're 'evil, impure, and perverted animals' then I'm sorry, but what can I do? You're basically saying that I'm not entitled to my beliefs because of X, Y and Z, but where do we draw the line? Most other monotheistic religions believe in some kind of punishment for non-belief, so are you saying that no one can express those beliefs, either, because the thought that there's a chance that a person might not believe in a God (when it's their free choice to do so!!!) and get punished for it would be enough to upset someone and, of course, we can't have that, can we?!

Comparing homosexuals to murderers is not fair and it is not okay. Murder may be a choice, it may be a genetic compulsion, but murder DOES hurt people. Murder takes something away that cannot be replaced, and that creates an understandable level of contempt and disgust. Homosexuality DOES NOT hurt people. It DOES NOT take anything away. The only thing that is taken is taken FROM homosexuals, and that is the right to live a normal life, free from harassment, discrimination, and condemnation.

I probably should've qualified that comparison a bit more. I wasn't directly comparing homosexuals to murderers - that's ridiculous - but it was more for the gist of the analogy? I could've picked any crime, but you probably wouldn't have agreed with it, anyway, because you see nothing wrong with homosexuality, and you're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

[emmasi]

Tbh, I'm not one to say who'll end up in Hell, because only God can be the judge of that. I'm well aware of the consequences of eternal damnation. My friends, luckily, are respectful of my religion, and they don't mind that I think that homosexuality is a sin - afterall, we're all sinners, and all sin is equal in the eyes of God. They know that I'd never actually discriminate against them as people. Besides, since they're largely not Christian, anyway, they just don't believe it, but at the same time they respect my beliefs, and I respect them as people, so it's all good.

I'm glad to hear that. Believe it or not, I am the "religious one" out of my group of friends, and I used to worry that they would go to Hell for not believing in God. After many many discussions, we're all in agreement that there's "something" out there, and I've accepted that that something is working for the good of all of us, whatever our individual beliefs are. I just worry that so much hate and violence gets perpetuated over petty discrepancies, and that people lose sight of the point. We should be looking after each other and helping each other, not finding excuses to hurt each other, either physically or by name-calling and discrimination. I'm glad that you seem to be of that opinion too

[TachelHolden]

I say if you are a woman and like women , if you are a man and like men go for it!!