1993 Episode Discussion

[Bobby Forever Missed]

Yeah they can just totally move on....said no one ever

[matty]

Why would/should a father be less upset over the death of his son as a mother?? Does that make sense to anyone at all?! Both parents would be pretty much equally upset, and rightly so.

[beau_t]

Old H&A Fan, I'm just dumbfounded that somebody needs a "scientific explanation" why people would be sad that a baby died. It's like... wow. Who would ever need that explained to them?!

Why didn't Sally react the same as Finlay? Erm, how about they are different people! Everybody reacts to things differently. There is no scientific explanation for it, other than the fact that human beings are all different. They don't all conform to your idea of what is normal behaviour (even if your idea is nobody else's - nobody else on here is questioning the characters' reactions! Maybe this should tell you something.)

[Old H&A Fan]

Beau_T, your explanation about Finlay's more stable response sounds rather bizarre, much like how you think of my mere questioning of why little baby Sally is crying like she lost her little doll while the rest of the family and actors on scene are acting more like adults than toddlers, trying to save the baby and call for help as quickly as they can. "People are different"?? Excuse me??

[Natasha]

That's what I said Alexx? it should only be about Pippa (the mother) not every man and his dog.

What about Michael (the father) - is he not allowed to be sad about the death of his son?

Old H&A Fan you are pissing me off.

What about Michael? He was Dale's father

[Old H&A Fan]

Nowhere have I said Michael shouldn't be sad about the death of the baby. Nowhere have I suggested he doesn't "have the right" (as so ludicrously put) to feel sad. Perhaps it has been taken a bit out of context, what I meant was Pippa has first rights to be sad and upset. What I am saying is that Mr Fisher, Alsa, Alf etc. are also treating it like the end of the world, when really first and foremost, it is Pippa, then Michael.

Amazing how these things get taken way out of context and get turned into a full-on slanging match littered with sarcasm, like Sally should "have a party" when really all I said she was overreacting. People really need to take a chill pill when it comes to these things. Otherwise it's just a trollfight with no hope of any kind of rational debate (dare I even suggest a scientific side.....oh No!!....mustn't do that!!)

[Red Ranger 1]

I'm kind of worried about being dragged into a debate lasting several days but here goes.I was going to say that the storyline kind of demonstrates the differences between the show then and the show now:Back then, everyone was interlinked and knew each other, so if one family suffered a tragedy then everyone else knew about it and sympathised with them and was upset as well because they were friends, whereas nowadays if someone dies there's maybe three or four characters who were close to them who are upset and everyone else only really knew them to say hello to in the Diner (in fact over the past year or so it's got to the point where they genuinely write characters who've been on the show for months as complete strangers) so they're not really that bothered.

From what I hear the current storyline may be an exception, but we're two months off seeing it in the UK so I don't know for sure.

So I was a bit surprised to come across the opinion that it should have been like that then and only the family, maybe even only the parents, would be affected.I suspect that anything I say now will be dissected and argued with but here's my thoughts."People are different" is actually a rational, scientific explanation, the degree it affects them isn't completely defined by labels like mother, father, older sister (or adoptive half-sister if you want to nitpick) or family friend.Not all mothers will react like Pippa did, not all fathers will react like Michael.I think pretty much any halfway decent human being would be upset by the death of an infant they knew, moreso by the death of an infant they lived with and had cuddled and played with, even if it hadn't happened that day.I think the suggestion that Sally crumbled in a heap on the floor while everyone else was running around trying to save Dale is somewhat unfair:Her first reaction was to rush upstairs in a fairly calm manner, probably to see if she could help, and she only broke down in tears when Dale was pronounced dead and there was nothing else she could do.That's in character for Sally, who tends to be portrayed as pretty emotional and sensitive, and she's over it by the next episode, so I don't think taking a few minutes/hours to cry over what happened is an overreaction.In fact, pretty soon she's reading the situation better than Fin, and realising that clearing away Dale's things before he's even cold is unlikely to go down well.In the same way, Pippa shutting down the way she did is in character.I do think it's a shame that we didn't get to see Damian's immediate reaction, which is possibly the only important omission.

I remember Adam and Shane's door-to-door salesman scenes, didn't realise that it was the same episode as Dale's death though.And I was surprised at Shane being the one with a conscience and pointing out the small print.Actually, I think I might have got it confused with a similar storyline with Henry Ramsay in Neighbours, same as I think I mixed up Sarah's near-kidnapping with a similar sequence in Byker Grove where a girl almost accepts a lift when she sees the guy has a child seat in the car.Oh well, he was a pretty half-hearted kidnapper who basically ends up sitting there and waiting for Sarah to get out of the car before driving off.(As with the way that Tug acts as though he's trapped on a boat that was close enough to the dock for him to just step off, poor direction may be at work here.)I remember watching 1222 during Channel 5's 25 Years break and thinking the Tug/Sarah stuff felt a bit out of place when all the other characters ultimately tie in with what's happened with Dale.But by the next episode, we did probably need something to cut away to from the Ross scene so maybe it was necessary.

Ah yes, Damian, who starts the week being yelled at by Michael and Fin for no good reason and ends up being yelled at by Angel, a lot.(Seriously, the guy did the right thing, paid for his own special meals because the family were hard up, where does Fin get off labelling him selfish?)And it's clear by now he's pigeonholed as the nice guy who gets friendzoned by all the girls:He's good friends with Sarah and she ends up dating Tug, then he's good friends with Angel and she ends up dating Shane.

In the end, he manages a one-night stand with Selina during a guest stint, then takes an oath of celibacy.Yes, really.

At the time, this felt rather abrupt (I seem to remember Damian ends up pretty much forcing Shane to say he likes her, when there'd been very little indication) but watching it in retrospect and without missing a fifth of the episodes, there is some subtle groundwork being laid:Shane obviously fancied her when they first met and the ego bruising of her playing him was probably more damaging than losing the money.Despite that, every now and then he does try and be pleasant to her but she always shuts him down and sneers at him:How much of that is her making a snap judgement of him as a loser jock (which she seems to have a thing about) and how much is her overcompensating for her own feelings as later episodes will claim I'm not sure.(Actually, a lot of the aggro this week was from her, notably when she rants at him for not understanding Damian when he was actually perfectly nice to him, which Shane didn't really react to.)And the revelation that Angel burnt down her school, another part of her back story that ends up being dropped.(I remember a couple of years later reading a spoiler saying something like "Angel explains to Frankie why she left home" and thinking "Why did she leave home?Oh yeah, she burnt down the school", only to watch the episode and find they'd changed it.)

[John]

I think people need to take a deep breath.

Obviously people have differing views on this event and that is understandable. It's also quite acceptable to disagree with someone's view even strongly.

However in my opinion sarcasm almost never leads to a good outcome in an argument.

Please be careful when expressing views.

[Jezz]

Very harrowing scenes with Baby Dale's death without a doubt!

The effects will be felt within the Fletcher/Ross household for quite a while. I think Sally's reaction from her step brother's death was very realistic.

[Old H&A Fan]

I'm kind of worried about being dragged into a debate lasting several days but here goes.I was going to say that the storyline kind of demonstrates the differences between the show then and the show now:Back then, everyone was interlinked and knew each other, so if one family suffered a tragedy then everyone else knew about it and sympathised with them and was upset as well because they were friends, whereas nowadays if someone dies there's maybe three or four characters who were close to them who are upset and everyone else only really knew them to say hello to in the Diner (in fact over the past year or so it's got to the point where they genuinely write characters who've been on the show for months as complete strangers) so they're not really that bothered.

From what I hear the current storyline may be an exception, but we're two months off seeing it in the UK so I don't know for sure.

So I was a bit surprised to come across the opinion that it should have been like that then and only the family, maybe even only the parents, would be affected.I suspect that anything I say now will be dissected and argued with but here's my thoughts."People are different" is actually a rational, scientific explanation, the degree it affects them isn't completely defined by labels like mother, father, older sister (or adoptive half-sister if you want to nitpick) or family friend.Not all mothers will react like Pippa did, not all fathers will react like Michael.I think pretty much any halfway decent human being would be upset by the death of an infant they knew, moreso by the death of an infant they lived with and had cuddled and played with,[1] even if it hadn't happened that day.I think the suggestion that Sally crumbled in a heap on the floor while everyone else was running around trying to save Dale is somewhat unfair:Her first reaction was to rush upstairs in a fairly calm manner, probably to see if she could help, and she only broke down in tears when Dale was pronounced dead and there was nothing else she could do.That's in character for Sally, who tends to be portrayed as pretty emotional and sensitive, and she's over it by the next episode, so I don't think taking a few minutes/hours to cry over what happened is an overreaction.In fact, pretty soon she's reading the situation better than Fin, and realising that clearing away Dale's things before he's even cold is unlikely to go down well.In the same way, Pippa shutting down the way she did is in character.I do think it's a shame that we didn't get to see Damian's immediate reaction, which is possibly the only important omission.

I remember Adam and Shane's door-to-door salesman scenes, didn't realise that it was the same episode as Dale's death though.And I was surprised at Shane being the one with a conscience and pointing out the small print.Actually, I think I might have got it confused with a similar storyline with Henry Ramsay in Neighbours, same as I think I mixed up Sarah's near-kidnapping with a similar sequence in Byker Grove where a girl almost accepts a lift when she sees the guy has a child seat in the car.Oh well, he was a pretty half-hearted kidnapper who basically ends up sitting there and waiting for Sarah to get out of the car before driving off.(As with the way that Tug acts as though he's trapped on a boat that was close enough to the dock for him to just step off, poor direction may be at work here.)I remember watching 1222 during Channel 5's 25 Years break and thinking the Tug/Sarah stuff felt a bit out of place when all the other characters ultimately tie in with what's happened with Dale.But by the next episode, we did probably need something to cut away to from the Ross scene so maybe it was necessary.

Ah yes, Damian, who starts the week being yelled at by Michael and Fin for no good reason and ends up being yelled at by Angel, a lot.(Seriously, the guy did the right thing, paid for his own special meals because the family were hard up, where does Fin get off labelling him selfish?)[2]And it's clear by now he's pigeonholed as the nice guy who gets friendzoned by all the girls:[3]He's good friends with Sarah and she ends up dating Tug, then he's good friends with Angel and she ends up dating Shane.

In the end, he manages a one-night stand with Selina during a guest stint, then takes an oath of celibacy.Yes, really.

At the time, this felt rather abrupt (I seem to remember Damian ends up pretty much forcing Shane to say he likes her, when there'd been very little indication) but watching it in retrospect and without missing a fifth of the episodes, there is some subtle groundwork being laid:Shane obviously fancied her when they first met and the ego bruising of her playing him was probably more damaging than losing the money.Despite that, every now and then he does try and be pleasant to her but she always shuts him down and sneers at him:How much of that is her making a snap judgement of him as a loser jock (which she seems to have a thing about) and how much is her overcompensating for her own feelings as later episodes will claim I'm not sure.(Actually, a lot of the aggro this week was from her, notably when she rants at him for not understanding Damian when he was actually perfectly nice to him, which Shane didn't really react to.)And the revelation that Angel burnt down her school, another part of her back story that ends up being dropped.(I remember a couple of years later reading a spoiler saying something like "Angel explains to Frankie why she left home" and thinking "Why did she leave home?Oh yeah, she burnt down the school", only to watch the episode and find they'd changed it.)

[1] Thanks Red Ranger, this is the kind of "scientific" answer I was seeking to my question about the reactions to the cot death. This is what I see in a civilised debate regardless of what side I am on.

[2] I couldn't agree with you more. Fin was being unfair and calling him "selfish" is nothing but an insult.

[3] The "friendzoning" of some guys but not others. This is a serious problem in our society, one that ruins lives, and through no fault of his own. It is sad that this problem is ignored, swept under the carpet and never treated or attempt to be solved.