Andy Barrett - Tai Hara

[Red Ranger 1]

7 minutes ago, KittCatt said:

Andy was prepared to go to jail for 40 years until Josh confessed and he came up with this plan to save Josh, not necessarily himself. He knows Josh would never have gone without him and would never survive by himself out there. I'm happy but not happy at the same time with this exit. As Ludub said, Andy murdered someone in cold blood and should have gone to prison, but, for now at least, he has escaped justice. 

He blames himself for Hannah and Oscars death, which, is a good thing by human standards. He did something that contributed to the deaths of 2 people he cared about and loved. I'm glad he showed remorse, because it did show that he cared about them. Tank didn't show much in the end, even if he was willing to go down for it, and neither did Roo really (at least she doesn't seem to anymore at least). All 3 played a big part in the explosion but for me far more of the blame lies with Roo. She was the organizer of the event and provided an unsafe environment. A hazardous environment. Anyone else could've knocked over those gas tanks. I have no idea why Andy was charged with double manslaughter. But this is Home and Away, where the police force don't know what they're doing. For me, I could not confirm that beyond any reasonable doubt that, take Andy and his actions out of the picture that the explosion would not have occurred. The set-up was still hazardous due to Roo's negligence. 

Was Zac actually sentenced or did he just go to remand? I can't recall. But Josh has been in remand twice recently, for covering up for Andy and killing Charlotte. Sure, he deserved to be punished for hiding his involvement in Charlotte's death but, for me, 25 years is a bit much. Especially, as Ludub said, Angelo in the end got absolutely nothing. And yes, he deserved to be punished for covering for Andy, but him being Charlotte's killer has let me down completely. I just never believed it was in character. But, obviously other people, like the writers didn't think so.

It's all just words.It's the same excuse that was always used for Brax, that if he went to jail it would be the worst for Casey...and in the end he got Casey killed.And Andy will probably get Josh killed, dragging him into a life he's not prepared for when he might be better off in prison and could still end up going there.I think Tank has shown appropriate remorse and it's hard to see what else he could have done in the circumstances.Let Andy lay into him?Stay away from the fundraiser because Andy told him to?Josh is as much to blame for Tank, given that he was the one that got Andy riled up and sent him after Tank in the first place, but we've seen no remorse from him.Roo's shown remorse for what she did, which wasn't much.The explosion was caused by the damage to the valves done by Andy.They were in a place where people weren't expected to go, they'd possibly have needed to be knocked over with some force, anyone knocking them over by accident would have done something about it not just driven off.Yes, Zac was on remand.Did Josh actually get sent to jail or just spend a night in a lock-up until he got bail?Because that's a huge difference.Maybe 25 years was excessive but running off has just made it worse.As I indicated above, Josh has always been a selfish coward.So if he accidentally killed Charlotte the way he did, I'd say that running off, keeping quiet about it and letting others be blamed and punished while he shows only token remorse was very in character.

[KittCatt]

Well we are never going to see eye to eye regarding who is responsible for the explosion, but i do firmly believe that Andy would never have wanted Hannah and Oscar to die. I take your point that Andy certainly shouldn't have started that fight in the first place and should not have driven off like that. 

To the best of my knowledge Josh spent about a week (or maybe a little more/less in TV land) in remand for covering for Andy and about another week (give or take again) for Charlotte's murder before his sentencing. I think Evie bailed him out the first time. 

For me, keeping his involvement in Charlotte's murder a secret is character assassination. Yes, Josh has done terrible things in the past, such as covering for his brother time after time. But he showed some sort of remorse then, and was torn between doing the right, moral thing and keeping his brother with him. This year, Josh has shown little or no remorse for killing Charlotte and letting Zac go to jail. It doesn't make sense to me that he would keep it all a secret and not show any remorse, only to benefit himself. He is certainly not the most selfless person in the world, but it just doesn't sit right with me. 

[Ludub]

1 hour ago, Red Ranger 1 said:

They were in a place where people weren't expected to go,

Was the area cordoned off? Were there barriers that they had to climb over? How was it designated as an area that was off bounds?

[Little bean]

He (admittedly only after being pushed to do so by Evie) reported the drug ring and nearly got himself and Kat killed because of it.

Red, we have both given up on this show over this storyline but for different reasons. I loved Josh but they turned him into someone he wasn't (in my view) and ruined his character. You hated Josh and see him getting away with stuff he shouldn't have. It's interesting to me because the writers have really ballsed this up by making opposite ends of the spectrum come to the same sad conclusion. We all know that on a show like this you can't please everyone but It takes some doing to alienate your viewers on both sides!

I'm planning to come back and take a look again when this storyline has finally aired in the UK. Whether I'll stay watching remains to be seen.  If not, you'll probably find me in the pub at 6.30. I'll save a table.

[Red Ranger 1]

2 hours ago, KittCatt said:

Well we are never going to see eye to eye regarding who is responsible for the explosion, but i do firmly believe that Andy would never have wanted Hannah and Oscar to die.

To the best of my knowledge Josh spent about a week (or maybe a little more/less in TV land) in remand for covering for Andy and about another week (give or take again) for Charlotte's murder before his sentencing. I think Evie bailed him out the first time. 

For me, keeping his involvement in Charlotte's murder a secret is character assassination. Yes, Josh has done terrible things in the past, such as covering for his brother time after time. But he showed some sort of remorse then, and was torn between doing the right, moral thing and keeping his brother with him. This year, Josh has shown little or no remorse for killing Charlotte and letting Zac go to jail. It doesn't make sense to me that he would keep it all a secret and not show any remorse, only to benefit himself. He is certainly not the most selfless person in the world, but it just doesn't sit right with me. 

Oh, I agree he didn't want them to die but that doesn't make him innocent.I was somewhat bewildered by the reaction to it along the lines of "How can it be manslaughter?He didn't mean to kill anyone!" because...that's what manslaughter is.When you don't mean to kill anyone but it's still your fault.Did Josh actually go to jail or did he spend a week in the lock-up at the police station?Because there is a difference between having a private cell and being stuck in jail with the other criminals being stabbed: Zac was denied bail and sent to jail.I accept that Josh felt remorse over covering for what Andy did to Maddy and didn't want anything to do with him as a result (until Heath dragged him to see him, which I've never really forgiven him for).But he never showed any remorse over Jake's murder, he always took the attitude that Andy did the right thing and all that mattered was he wasn't caught.I remember him standing there saying "If the police find out, they won't understand", convinced they were somehow above the law.

2 hours ago, Ludub said:

Was the area cordoned off? Were there barriers that they had to climb over? How was it designated as an area that was off bounds?

No, and that's one of the areas Roo was lax in.But you talk as if the gas canisters were in the middle of the dance floor where people were running about, not out of the way behind the scenes.

1 hour ago, Little bean said:

He (admittedly only after being pushed to do so by Evie) reported the drug ring and nearly got himself and Kat killed because of it.

Red, we have both given up on this show over this storyline but for different reasons. I loved Josh but they turned him into someone he wasn't (in my view) and ruined his character. You hated Josh and see him getting away with stuff he shouldn't have. It's interesting to me because the writers have really ballsed this up by making opposite ends of the spectrum come to the same sad conclusion. We all know that on a show like this you can't please everyone but It takes some doing to alienate your viewers on both sides!

Josh only owned up when it was in his best interests to do so, when Evie already knew (so there was no point in hiding it from her) and he was being threatened so going to the police was his best option.I didn't hate Josh until this storyline, I just didn't like him, and I do think he was a very selfish person and his actions here are in character.I hated Andy and always hoped that Jake's murder would come back to bite him one day, which has increased my frustration that it did but it didn't.To be honest, if they'd stuck with the false confession, sent Andy to jail and Josh had left some other way, I wouldn't have been happy but I wouldn't have decided to stop watching.I'd even have kept watching if Josh had gone to jail and Andy had got a lenient sentence for the double-manslaughter and left a broken man, knowing it was his fault Josh was in jail.But for them both to confess, both to be guilty, both deserve to go to jail and both get away with it...that's obviously a show that's not aimed at anyone who wants it to have a sense of right and wrong.

[KittCatt]

In my opinion Andy was not solely responsible for the caravan explosion and therefore shouldn't have been charged with 2 counts of manslaughter on his own. It just doesn't sit right with me that Roo and the suppliers can show such negligence and get away scott free. Charge Andy for the appropriate charges, while giving Roo some sort of punishment as well. Because they all did the wrong thing and all contributed to the explosion the way it happened. 

As i recall Josh spent those weeks in prison (remand) not at the police station. Andy spent all his time there and was never moved to remand. He then got bail once Josh confessed, even after confessing to murdering Jake and being on double manslaughter charges, which i thought was quite odd.

[Ludub]

Ok, so I'm just going to throw this question open to anyone who thinks the explosion was Andy's fault: What would be your view if Irene had been drunk at the fundraiser (like she was at Zac and Leah's wedding), and she had stumbled forcefully into the gas canisters and knocked them over? In this scenario, she just knocked them over, and then stumbled off home, resulting in the same explosion and the same death toll. It was then discovered, exactly as in the show, that Roo didn't bother her backside to do the proper checks, and that she'd been using expired tanks from shifty suppliers. Irene shouldn't have been in a 'behind the scenes' area downing her bottles of vodka, and she shouldn't have left without telling people what she'd done. Roo shouldn't have created such a hazardous set up in the first place, and as the event organiser she should have cordoned off any area that was potentially unsafe for people to be. So I suppose the question is: are you team Roo, or team Irene, if this was what had happened? Would you still think that Irene was responsible? Would she deserve maybe 25 years for manslaughter (if that's the going rate these days)? I'm just interested. Does it make a difference to you when it's a 'nice person' who caused the accident? Is it more difficult to decide when you have to choose between two 'nice' characters or are you still certain that the blame lies entirely with the person that knocked them over?

Edited July 7, 2016 by Ludub

[Red Ranger 1]

10 hours ago, KittCatt said:

In my opinion Andy was not solely responsible for the caravan explosion and therefore shouldn't have been charged with 2 counts of manslaughter on his own. It just doesn't sit right with me that Roo and the suppliers can show such negligence and get away scott free. Charge Andy for the appropriate charges, while giving Roo some sort of punishment as well. Because they all did the wrong thing and all contributed to the explosion the way it happened. 

I'm not convinced that Roo and the suppliers' actions caused or even contributed to the accident, but yes, breaching regulations is still an offence and I agree there should be censure.

5 hours ago, Ludub said:

Ok, so I'm just going to throw this question open to anyone who thinks the explosion was Andy's fault: What would be your view if Irene had been drunk at the fundraiser (like she was at Zac and Leah's wedding), and she had stumbled forcefully into the gas canisters and knocked them over? In this scenario, she just knocked them over, and then stumbled off home, resulting in the same explosion and the same death toll. It was then discovered, exactly as in the show, that Roo didn't bother her backside to do the proper checks, and that she'd been using expired tanks from shifty suppliers. Irene shouldn't have been in a 'behind the scenes' area downing her bottles of vodka, and she shouldn't have left without telling people what she'd done. Roo shouldn't have created such a hazardous set up in the first place, and as the event organiser she should have cordoned off any area that was potentially unsafe for people to be. So I suppose the question is: are you team Roo, or team Irene, if this was what had happened? Would you still think that Irene was responsible? Would she deserve maybe 25 years for manslaughter (if that's the going rate these days)? I'm just interested. Does it make a difference to you when it's a 'nice person' who caused the accident? Is it more difficult to decide when you have to choose between two 'nice' characters or are you still certain that the blame lies entirely with the person that knocked them over?

Hand on heart...yeah, I think I'd feel the same.Maybe I'm not being honest with myself but I think in that case I would believe that the responsibility would lie with Irene, that she was the one who did the damage and caused the explosion.I think she'd feel the same and I don't think she'd do a runner like Andy whatever justification she could think of.I don't think she'd deserve 25 years, but then if Andy hadn't done a lot of other stuff I doubt he'd get 25 years either, there are different types of manslaughter and knocking over some gas canisters is different to accidentally shooting someone with a gun.

[D.B]

On 7 July 2016 at 08:48, Red Ranger 1 said:

It's all just words.It's the same excuse that was always used for Brax, that if he went to jail it would be the worst for Casey...and in the end he got Casey killed.And Andy will probably get Josh killed, dragging him into a life he's not prepared for when he might be better off in prison and could still end up going there.I think Tank has shown appropriate remorse and it's hard to see what else he could have done in the circumstances.Let Andy lay into him?Stay away from the fundraiser because Andy told him to?Josh is as much to blame for Tank, given that he was the one that got Andy riled up and sent him after Tank in the first place, but we've seen no remorse from him.Roo's shown remorse for what she did, which wasn't much.The explosion was caused by the damage to the valves done by Andy.They were in a place where people weren't expected to go, they'd possibly have needed to be knocked over with some force, anyone knocking them over by accident would have done something about it not just driven off.Yes, Zac was on remand.Did Josh actually get sent to jail or just spend a night in a lock-up until he got bail?Because that's a huge difference.Maybe 25 years was excessive but running off has just made it worse.As I indicated above, Josh has always been a selfish coward.So if he accidentally killed Charlotte the way he did, I'd say that running off, keeping quiet about it and letting others be blamed and punished while he shows only token remorse was very in character.

Well you do make some good points, but really you can't deny that Andy did show real remorse for what he did. If it wasn't revealed that Josh killed Charlotte, I think Andy would have gladly gone down for the expolsion. That said, I agree with KittCatt, he wasn't fully responsible for what happened: the suppliers and Roo should have been held for negligence and while Andy did start the fight, Tank was also involved in it, and while I agree with you that he had every right to go to the fundraiser, I still believe that he shouldn't have gone. I mean he should have thought "Oh there are people there who would obviously have a problem with me there, so..." And to your thought that they should have done something about it instead of driven off, I don't think that either of them realised the damage. Now Andy was far from my favourite character but you got to see it from both sides. As to your thought to Josh always being a selfish coward, I'm not entirely sure about that. I mean, yes he should have turned himself in after the killing and I really didn't like how he used Evie's grief to (almost) escape jail, but when you look at it, it was both an accident and self- defence: Josh didn't go out with the intention to murder and Charlotte did pul a gun on him first. I think he just panicked afterwards. I don't know, I wish the show had just given us his side of the story instead of having us believe that he was a cold killer.

 

On 7 July 2016 at 08:38, Red Ranger 1 said:

Derrick killed Lou, the autopsy showed it was the gunshot that killed him, and he was the one directly responsible for the people smuggling, Hugo was just the pick-up man.I agree Hugo should have gone to jail but in the circumstances it wasn't an option.They needed him to identify those higher up and that meant witness protection.And, while his return stint didn't go him any favours, I could believe in him as someone who got dragged into someone else's operation when he was vulnerable (his girlfriend had just been killed).Angelo didn't keep quiet for months, didn't stand by while other people were accused and jailed, and did go to jail.I know some people felt he got off lightly, but he wasn't instantly forgiven like Aden, Hunter or Josh, most people hated him for a year afterwards.In my opinion, he earned his happy ending.

I suspect you're right, I would have forgiven Oscar and been okay with him getting away.But that's because Oscar deserved that, rather than having a car drop on him.I never would have believed Oscar would let Zac go to jail because he wasn't that type of person, he was the one who did everything he could to take responsibility for running over Tamara. Josh, on the other hand, is a selfish cowardly jerk who has spent years covering up Andy's wrongdoing even when it means stabbing good people in the back, betrayed Maddy in an underhanded manner and covered up a drug ring to save his own skin.So running away and leaving Charlotte to die and letting other people be blamed for it is entirely in character for him and he deserved to go to jail, not have his equally self-centred fiancé who's made the whole thing all about her fighting his corner to the end.

Well to start off, yes Angelo did admit to killing Jack but he only did that when attacked by Tony and besides Martha and Charlie already knew it was him so there was really no point in hiding it. As for Hugo... I'm really not getting you here: so it's ok for Hugo, who lost a girlfriend, to be part of an inhumane operation that was responsible for killing 12 innocent people, but it's not ok for Evie, who lost nearly everyone in her family and is afraid to lose anyone else, to help cover up for her fiancé .?? Of course, she was wrong to do it but I could understand why and in any case it was better than being involved with intentionally hurting people. Now while I agree with you that Josh was wrong to keep covering up for Andy, it is kind of understandable as Andy, despite all his faults (and there is a lot of them), he cares for Josh. As for Oscar, while I agree that he deserved more than the tragic ending that he got, if he did kill Charlotte in the same circumstances as Josh (as in he covered it up for a very lon,g time), he still should have gone down for it, not for 25 years but a reasonable amount. While I hate Charlotte and I wasn't sorry to see the psychopathic murder go the way she did,  if Oscar did murder her ( even if it was revenge for Denny), he still should not have run off and covered it up, same as Josh had. I mean, I really liked Oscar and I probably forgiven him, same as you, but still. Murder is murder, I guess, or manslaughter is manslaughter, depends on how you look at it. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by D.B

[c120701]

Completely off-topic, but my brain is obviously working hard to block out the Braxtons & Barretts as when I saw Josh killed Charlotte, I was thinking Josh West & Charlotte Adams and thought, ‘no Charlotte drowned!’